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Author Topic: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available  (Read 1472 times)

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2021, 01:59:27 AM »
A two part reply.

Firstly, why replace the BMW beancan? There are 2 major reasons for doing this, firstly to get rid of the mechanical advance and retard, and secondly because they are old
 The last time I set out to rebuild a beancan I found the bushes were all worn, the ADV/RTD springs were slack and the posts they mounted to were worn. All perfectly repairable and done properly the rebuilt beancan will outlast all of us.

But, I get more pleasure riding my bike than I do merely working on them so it was a no-brainer to update.

Like others I still carry a carefully hoarded "points in a can" beancan in case I need a "get me home". But I may stop that now and simply carry a spare hall effect as I reckon I could change that in under 30 minutes. In fact I might even pre-fit one and that way all I would need to do is flip the switch on the Wedgetail ICU..
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Sejati

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2021, 07:01:14 AM »
Anyone can share the link to purchase the new Electronic Ignition module by Wedgetail?
Interested to try one of this unit.

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2021, 05:56:06 PM »
The only way to currently buy is via your regional distributor, or if there isn't one, by emailing the manufacturers.

https://wedgetailsystems.com.au/
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2021, 10:05:42 AM »
There is another system from Euro Moto Electrics that I just noticed. It is a crank mounted system with what looks like an optical pickup.

It appears there are drawbacks: Not designed for use with electronic ignition coils, only higher impedance points type. Suggestion of EMC interference even if installed as per instructions. Warnings about having the wrong HT resistors. Nasty screw terminals on the control box. Other wiring mods required on late model bikes.

Some nice reviews of the Wedgetail are appearing now, although the Silent Hektik has nothing but praise where I've seen it online. The Guzzi guys seem quite happy with their version.

 :lurker:
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2021, 04:53:50 PM »
So Silent Hektik 314.00 with coil and bean can drive cover delivered from BMWBayer to my door in 4 days.
Parts being swapped between wasp/hornet visits and should be testing sometime tomorrow.

I've stripped the bean can as I have a hall sensor from China some months/year ago (which took ages to arrive and does work). The can is in good condition, although the top and bottom bushings (internal) are dry. Not SNAFU, but I'm glad I looked. Burnt remnants of grease. New springs on order. Red grease will be put on here and there and on the shaft and inner thrust washers. Oil on the plain bushes. Then it can go in my box of 'good' spares.

The SH trigger is going to be a royal pain to get in the right place, I had the same trouble on a 2 stroke conversion to something. but the crank is marked nd I have a strobe. Erm, does anyone know the rod length on an R65 as I have a dial gauge and will double check my marking (set by wire in plug hole and printed gauge on the crank).

R65 rod length anyone?  ???
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2021, 02:17:24 PM »
Pics attached.

Fitting.
1. The sensor sat just right without any trouble. I set it 180 degrees out so it matches my 180 out flywheel! The 180 out painted timing marks line up on the strobe perfectly.
2. Connection is very easy. They give you a 3 pin plug which simply goes in where the old unit comes out. Connect red to red, blue to blue, black to black on the flying leads, heatshrink over these and the spares. Black is black on the loom, blue is brown and red is green with stripe.
3. Coil fits using aluminium bracket as shown on my 83. Easy.
4. Control unit goes where the old one was (but note I dropped it using flat washers on the handy heatsink fins). The holes are just a tadge too high for the tank. Easy.
5. Curve B is almost standard and 8000RPM limiter setting A.

Running.
1. Start and idle is obviously improved.
2. I had to back out the idle screws about 1/8 turn. I thought the timing was wrong initially, but it is spot on. The sparks are very noticeable with the plugs out so I guess the new coil and triple spark is making a difference.
3. Pulling away is very positive.

So all good. Took all day (it was hot!) and I also tidied up some other wiring whilst in there. It'll get a good run on Tuesday so we'll see how it goes when really hot.
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2021, 02:28:50 PM »
There is indeed more "Draft from the Cellar". Nothing serious like the 860 kit, but more like a modern engine at tickover and pulling away. Smooth and steady. Everything else feels the same. I don't intend testing the rev limiter. The bike has never had to go above 7,000 since I've had it. The minor clatter from the gearbox with the clutch out sitting at idle has also gone.

As well as backing out the idle screws, I can see the idle mixture can also be leaned out as it is rich now. No choke at all to start in 20C today. There is more engine braking as a result of the closed throttles. You ntice the engine has one rev of the starter before firing and not kicking off as soon as a piston hits TDC. You would never know unless you did it / felt it before and after. It's zzip-Brmmm where it was zz-Brmmm or zzzz.zzzz.zzzz.Brmm depending on choke and weather!

My bean can was in good condition and the timing was exactly the same at idle before and after. Verified by strobe and the 180-out factory markings and my painted marks set with piston stop / bit of wire and counting teeth on the other side of the crank. The coil was a relatively new brown type when I got it so no issues there. So the triple spark and multiple trigger calculation must be doing something.

I know it is a very subjective comparison, but based on what I see, understand about the engineering and feel, the HEKTIK may have the advantage over the Wedgtail in performance  :beehive:

The Wedgetail is obviously easier to fit (although the Hektik is a one beer job) and easier to time in (Hektic was almost as easy). Price is comparable, although Wedgetail is slightly pricier.


So a bit of a personal consumer review for you  :)
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2021, 02:57:07 PM »
Curve B is a bit hot for 860. Sustained tinkling at 3500 RPM in top gear up hill. 28C. I had a transient rattle very occasionally on the bean can on hot days, which is OK. Consistent rattling not good! So I'll try the flat version A (B is inverse expo).

I believe the standard curve is flat / linear and finishes a bit earlier than the Hektik. The expo curve ramps up faster. Both technically 32 degrees at >4500RPM.
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2021, 04:44:53 AM »
Silent Hektik surprised me when I asked about timing and would not offer anything knowing it's an 860. They suggested I ask Siebenrock, which I cheekily did. They also think the flat curve (like standard) rather than the hump-back early expo curve may sort it.

I also think that the high compression and non-ideal combustion chamber shape with huge bore/stroke ratio of the 860 kit is contributing, which is why there was some brief pinking with standard ignition. The hump-back ignition curve just making it worse in mid RPMs.

My thinking was also that the triple spark was tosh, but certainly the sparks given are very bright with the SH coil. Possibly another reason to back off the timing?

Sorry for lots of posts, but this info does not seem to exist on the web, which is why I'm typing  :bmw_smiley:
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2021, 12:28:02 PM »
I've plotted the standard bean can, SH "Steil" and "Flach" timing curves. I have assumed the bean can ends somewhere over 3000 rpm and is linear. The "Flach" is not as flat as it appears on the SH charts as the RPM axis is not linear. This is what they all look like on a linear scale.

Bean can yellow
Flat red
Steep blue

Since I had some pinging on hot days around 3500-4000 RPM on the bean can, I've set curve 8 which is 30 degrees and "flat". 

Guzzis and Porsche flatties tend to aim down to 30 degrees with high compression and 98RON according to what info I can find. The engine felt hard on 32 "Steil" and had continuous and obvious pinging in top at the same 3500-4000 and heavy load. The springs in my bean can were slightly stretched, although the timing light showed normal advance finishing around 3000. Perhaps that was actually incorrect and the full advance should have finished a bit higher. Hence the intermittent pings.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 12:51:45 PM by dogshome »
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2021, 01:26:59 PM »
30 degrees and "flat" timing has slight ping here and there until the temperature dropped later today below 20C and then all fine. I've weakened the idle jets 1/16 and the tickeover is absolutely rock solid. like an electric motor! I am running the coldest (and recommended)  NGK 7 heat range plugs.

As you know my R65 flywheel / clutch carrier is not in the right position. I thought it was 180 out, but of course with 5 mounting bolts it can only be 0, 72, 114, 216 or 288 degrees out.

I timed up using a probe down the plug hole and the bean can was set about half way in it's travel to get that. I put a paint blob where the static timing was on my clutch carrier. Strobed static and all ran fine with very occasional ping under heavy load on a very hot day.

Now I have my Silent Hektik ignition, I am getting more pinging at the recommended (for STANDARD bikes) 32 degrees and steep (early advance) curve and a much improved idle. Retarding it by using the flatter (not as flat as the bean can) curve and 30 degree full advance has almost got rid of the problem. I timed it by using the factory marks with the sensor 180 out. My painted mark lined up static as it did before. I don't have a full advance mark.

I'm completely confused now though. The crank can't be 180 out as it has 5 mounting holes. That is unless the big ends are set 36 degrees away from the bolts. Which looking at crank pics online, looks about right! So 0 is -36, 72 is 36, 114 is 78, 216 is 180 (!!!) and 288 is 252.

Can anyone confirm this please. I don't plan on getting the clutch out just to re-align the timing marks. I feel I may be 2 or 3 degrees over-advanced static but definitely not 36! If the crank is (sy) 40 degrees or 30 degrees in relation to the 5 mounting bolts, then that is the problem.

(Additionally, if anyone does know R65 rod length that will help as I have a dial gauge that I can angle down the plug hole)

 :drowning:
 :drowning:
 :drowning:
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 01:52:45 PM by dogshome »
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2021, 01:59:57 PM »
Just thinking out loud : could it be that in your engine cylinders are inverted ? We know that both are at TDC at the same time due to the crank construction. If you put the one with the two valves closed (in firing position) at the opposite, you have your 180 discrepancy ? What about the camshaft ? is it properly set up and aligned ?
I do not know if this setup is possible ?
If you find what is wrong, I would be delighted to know !

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2021, 05:45:26 AM »
I know the PO had the clutch out at a BMW dealer early on and that the barrels had been off as a 650 at some point as the RH head gasket was not the right way around (rubbing on pushrod!). I don't believe the cam chain has been out but it could have been. Everything being timed out is a possibility.  :dizzy2:

She was running fine as a 650 although the timing was retarded according to my primitive wire gauge. That was adjusted and coincidentally the bean can then sat in the middle of it's slots. Still no issues and running on 97RON with occasional use of 95 but no real hot weather. That is when I put my painted S mark on.

The ping started with the 860 kit in very hot weather, a transient thing that seemed like an old auto engine problem i.e. they all do it. What I can see on the web is odd tales of pinging with Siebenrock kits, but no-one ever getting to the bottom of it or reporting back if they did. The Hektik ignition (or my fitting of it) is what made the problem a PROBLEM.


I now think (oh dear) that the Siebenrock 9.5:1 is marginal on the standard timing and jetting. The more aggressive SH curve combined with a lack of accuracy by me of a couple degrees has pushed it over the edge.

So, armed with torch and marker pen, we shall be counting teeth. If my timing mark falls 112/2 =56 teeth from the S mark, then I can measure where TDC and full advance should be by the same method. There are a lot of error additions here though including the parallax problem with the window. If someone does find R65 rod length, then with a suitably wonky probe I might be able to get another comparator with dial gauge. If I ever take the clutch out, the carrier is getting put back on the right way round!!  :wall:
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2021, 09:13:27 AM »
Chicken nuggets for brains here.

My timing marks (which I set using a probe) are 32 teeth away from the factory marks. Not 55. The factory OT mark is somewhere about 20 degrees down the bore. The crank definitely isn't 180 out. My marks are 3 teeth apart as well which puts static timing at least 3 degrees advanced and I think probably several more.

I can get an almost straight shot down the lug hole and IF I can find my dial gauge (from 40 years ago) we might be in business.
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2021, 12:31:23 PM »
111 teeth. Timing marks a country mile out of anything that makes sense. I found TDC within 1/2 tooth and set idle 2 teeth above that.

Much twiddling of the Hektik timing flags even with locking tool I made and screwdriver in ring gear.

It all looks sensible now. Will get out later in the week
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O