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Author Topic: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available  (Read 1471 times)

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2021, 01:42:55 PM »
My old (very oversquare) 2L 2V Vauxhall 4 cylinder used to ping horribly. Heavy, no torque and underpowered. I'm not sure twin plugs (and retarded timing) would have completely fixed that, but I remember the theory was that 500cc was really the limit for 2-valve carburetor & mechanically timed ignition engines: If you wanted reasonable performance and didn't want to (or couldn't) use high octane fuel.

80s on Saabs have a pre-pinking detection and automatic retard that is absolutely vital in a turbo petrol engine. Early Ford and Toyota turbos didn't have anything as advanced. Hence the 2.3 can be easily tuned up to 300 or 400HP and remain bullet proof. Early Cossies and 6 cylinder Supras conversely known for spectacular meltdowns. Of course Saabs generally eat their Vauxhall derived gearboxes (I did four), FWD tyres and engine mounts and bulkheads if not re-inforced. Vauxhall parts bin brakes on some versions also an embarrassment. Glowing discs and smoke not too unusual on the road.

I've got my 860 set to 6+26 degrees and have not heard any complaint from it. I am running Super unleaded with a few drops of Wynns Lead substitute though. It was 27C and humid yesterday, good for finding marginal pre-ignition. The relatively low R65 gearing probably helps to get through any overly heavy loads also. By the time it loads-up, the air is doing 70 or more MPH over the heads and similarly down it's throat and we are past 4000RPM and the potentially clinky zone.

I don't know the comparatives of a BSA air cooled vertical twin or 500 single. The boxer does have ideal cooling and simple rounded head/piston shapes on it's side. I imagine the RPMs and ignition timings might be similar though?
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2021, 07:05:35 PM »
"Tony might be able to give more details and what's better about it than other modern ones?"

My experience is not really that extensive in terms of current relevance.

I have experience of:-

POINTS - easy to set up, pretty reliable and able to be diagnosed/repaired by the side of the road. I carry a rare "points in a can" with me when I go away. Not the best from a technological point of view, but points will get you home.

PIRHANA optical trigger ignition. Mercifully these have passed into history. The idea was sound - a plastic cut out disc pressed over the points can with a "C" section  plastic casting containing a LED and a receptor feeding a signal to an electronic coil driver. The problems were many and varied, sometimes simply wiping the emitter/receptor clean would get you going, other times the under-spec transistors switching the coil would fail. I got pretty good at replacing those, but the manufacturer started to "pot" the control box in epoxy rendering them irreparable. When they worked, they worked pretty well - still used the mechanical ADV/RTD. Eventually the unreliability issues combined with BMW introducing their own electronic ignition killed the market. If you ever find one, do not even think of using it.

BOYER BRANSDEN.  The first electronic ignition to incorporate electronic ADV/RTD. The only problems with these are that the advance starts feeding at cranking speed and is all-in very early. These things are tough and reliable, my 1978 RS has been using one since the early 80s and the wife's R65/80 has had one since 1987. The problems are the brutal way the advance feeds and the fact that the advance never stops - more revs equals more advance, right up to destruction. In my view these are still usable, they are also much cheaper than anything else available. For a long time there was no model to retrofit electronic beancans. There is now.

BMW electronic beancans. The one we all know and either swear by or swear at. Eventually they require a mechanical rebuild for which you get to make your own parts. Replacing the hall effect transistor is a bastard of a job.

EMERALD ISLE - sold under what ever name your importer chose to give them. The good is a superbly made beancan replacement that allows by the side of the road hall effect replacement. The can also has all the hardware to fit a second hall effect, either for redundancy or for twin plugging. the ICU incorporates electronic ADV/RTD which DOES NOT WORK AS CLAIMED. You can work around the issue, but later ICUs have a sad record of failure. Lastly the manufacturer has disappeared leaving importers to handle warranty from whatever stock they have according to their conscience. If you can pick up a EI beancan to use with an electronic advance ICU then do so, but avoid EI ICUs.

ABRIZ - another electronic ADV/RTD wannabe. They make a replacement hall effect carrier for the standard beancan which is pretty neat. BUT the ICU reliability is crap, utter crap. I fitted three of these before binning them, not one lasted more than 1000km. Identifiable by a roughly painted "advanced" on the ICU. They are pretty cheap and to be fair, for reasons I have never worked out, the bike that ate them also are a Bosch ICU. I have a question mark over ABRIZ ignitions.

WEDGETAIL. I have had an ICU for a while and I have sufficient faith in the manufacturer's ability that I have invested $1k in ICUs and beancans to convert out other bikes. When the cans arrive I will open one up and post photos.

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2021, 01:02:48 PM »
Hi Tony, that is a pretty comprehensive reply  :tekst-toppie:   I remember Piranha and had one fitted (to something!) as I also remember the nice sticker that came with it. What was it!! Mini? Rover V8 (that had a transistor in the dizzy), Fiat 131 Mirafiori.... Maybe. Argh! I can't remember!  :wall:

Keith.
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2021, 10:54:05 PM »
I got goodies in the mail today.

Going to be a hot time on the bike lift tonight

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mEZVp1JhFcz9cuYa7
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2021, 11:00:46 PM »
Pretties on display.

Bob, please note the holes in the heatsink, this allows fitment to the understand mount on my 1981 RS. I am thinking that would work for you too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uhQZLmQYuWpqptMC8
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2021, 11:04:10 PM »
Lastly, a peek inside the can. Room for a second trigger and easy fitting. I didn't take the inner plate off as I think you need to press it off the outer bearing and I didn't have a 5mm bolt handy



https://photos.app.goo.gl/RT5D2PZTSdjyb26Y7

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2021, 02:20:24 AM »
Lastly, a peek inside the can. Room for a second trigger and easy fitting. I didn't take the inner plate off as I think you need to press it off the outer bearing and I didn't have a 5mm bolt handy



https://photos.app.goo.gl/RT5D2PZTSdjyb26Y7

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline jp9094

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2021, 09:55:20 PM »
FYI, someone on the Facebook BMW airheads page posted a video by the owner of Wedgetail. He shows the inside of the beancan in a bit more detail than your photos Tony. There is also a nice video on the USA website: www.wedgetailusa.com .Might be worth a look.

FWIW

"It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts"

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2021, 08:08:12 PM »

An option for early R100 and 1981 R65s is to simply drill the heatsink with holes the same a dry apart as the original ICU and use the original mount.

Sorry Tony
I didn't relies what you were talking about
Now that I see the picture of the ICU
Looks like drilling holes into the heat sink would work  on the early R65
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2021, 11:17:22 AM »
Not sure whether to pst in this thread or start another. Anyhoo.

The cost of the Wedgetail system is at the upper end. Not unexpected and not as much as it could have been. But it is in excess of the Silent Hektik crankshaft sensor type with automatic advance, cabling and new dual coil. Ignoring shipping costs half way round the globe (which is quite reasonable) and it's still very similar numbers. Adding the bean can blanking plate brings things level. This has prompted me to look at the SH system again though.

SH crankshaft sensor with potentially more accurate sparking due to being measured in the right place.
WT very neat bolt on package that looks (and probably is) very durable.

I don't mind some non-standard wiring. I don't need adjustable timing as I'm unlikely to dual plug this bike.

 :dizzy2:



肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2021, 11:51:13 AM »
Hello,
I can understand the need for this device for bikes fitted with points. And even there it is marginal.
But on post 1981 models fitted with the bean can and ICU, I can't think of any reason this device will be useful ?
If you worry the Hall sensor fail, buy 5 of them (a two hour job to replace one) and find a couple ICU either from BMW or second hand from Motorworks or similar usual suspect.
On my bike, the hall sensor failed after 30 years and 200 000 km use. So I expect the new one to survive me...
I won't be able to justify the cost to the missus ......
But this is just my opinion and worth less than 2...
Have a nice day !
Stay safe !

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2021, 12:44:38 PM »
You are of course completely correct  ;D

I have a sensor from eBay in case the 40 year old original decides to retire. On the other hand... My XT500 had a grasstrack cam, bigger valves, huge Amal carb, 12V electrics, roller swingarm bearings, a tuned exhaust (after much cutting and welding), a capacity increase, higher gearing, dual leading shoe front brake and electronic ignition. Why? Well it ran really well and would embarrass 750 fours around town.

The current car only has the swirl flaps removed, the intake water spout removed, EGR bypass, a BSR remap and all four brakes uprated in disc size, caliper and pads. Fiat engine with Saab petrol intercooler and uprated Aero suspension was just asking for it. The previous one had the full 3" exhaust, PTFE heat shield, Piston dump valve, Konis, various chassis braces, BSR stage III remap, additional engine mountings (to stop it throwing itself out), ideal turbo wheels etc. That one made fun of V12 Astons.

My 250 RD had MK I Micron exhausts, RD400 carbs and reed blocks, somewhat modified ports (think 1lb of aluminium on floor after grinding), flattened and machined heads and had more hp than my R65. Great fun on L plates at the time.

So my needs have quelled over the years, but the modding bug still bites  :beehive:
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 12:46:58 PM by dogshome »
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2021, 05:26:10 AM »
No comments on the Silent Hektik crank mounted system?
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline BPT

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2021, 10:01:51 PM »
Not sure if it's been absolutely finalized but looks like it will be $500 in the US.
1983 R65 w/ Velorex 562 Sidecar

Offline dogshome

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2021, 02:06:59 PM »
350 GBP for basic Wedgetail including carriage (which is not unreasonable).

250 GBP for Silent Hektik trigger and unit similar to above.

350 GBP for SH with coil and other parts.


Even in Aus, I'd be presented with a decision to make. Delivery from Europe for us (stupid, neanderthal) Brits post-Brexit is still dodgy and expensive. Delivery from Aus therefore not much different. Delivery to Aus from Germany established for years and probably not an issue. I like the crank sensor position of the SH system, the Wedgetail looks simple to fit and indestructible. 100 is lot (a LOT) of beer though  :beerchug:

肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O