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Author Topic: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available  (Read 536 times)

Offline BPT

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Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« on: June 11, 2021, 11:44:58 PM »
Just an FYI for those wondering about these and who aren't on Facebook. Mark Morrissey posted today and said they'd finally gotten all of the components and have started assembling them so they'll be available shortly.
Unfortunately for the US (not only the US, each "region" will have only one dealer, not sure what that means for Europe/UK?) they'll only be available from one place (Tom Cutter).  Still no info on price and when they'll make it over here.
I have no connection, just thought I'd post it here since I remembered a couple of people talking about it recently.
1983 R65 w/ Velorex 562 Sidecar

Offline Tony Smith

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  • Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 04:28:55 PM »
I have had a Wedgetail module for several months, I am expecting another module and two trigger units in the next week or so.


The module is the heart of it, I only bought trigger units because I am too lazy to rebuild old BMW units with locked ADV/RTD modules. I report that the module works and that I have confidence in the maker's testing procedure so I expect the relationship will be a long and happy one.


You will not get more power over a properly setup standard unit.
Some users report better fuel consumption - I have not seen this.

You will get:-

Better starting due to better control over the coil driving process (modern electronics)
Better idling (for the same reason as above)
True 26 degree advance - something my Emerald Isle unit doesn't do reliably

And best of all from the point of view of retrofitting to an older bike, the module simply does not care what coils you use - if they are a type used by BMW they will work - the coil drivers are robust enough so that the need to worry about coil resistance is history.

Oh and it has pretty little blue LEDs that monitor operation and make initial static timing setup a breeze.

I am very happy with the unit and you will be too.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2021, 10:15:38 PM »
True 26 degree advance - something my Emerald Isle unit doesn't do reliably

You would not  believe the aggravation I went through trying  to get a EI ICU that would advance the 26 Deg as advertised
I tried 3 different  units  from 2 different suppliers and none of them worked
The one supplier did refund my money so I only have the one  but it  only gets 20 deg advance Like the other 2

I suspect the Wedge-tail ICU has been tested and will work as advertised

The only issue he may have is getting the air head community to try  another electronic advance type system after the issues Emerald Island and even BMW had with their failed attempt at a electronic advancing bean can

Locking the stock bean can is not a big deal
I  locked   mine the first time I got a EI ignition module but  had to buy their Can thinking that was the issure with the advance
Turned out it wasn't

Tony
Did you get an improvement in charging voltage at low Idle with the WT ICU over the stock ICU   

   
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2021, 10:30:08 PM »
One More Issue that may pop up for some R65 Owners trying to convert to the later ICU package
My R65 is a very early electronic ignition bike (mfg 11/81)
Their is NO!!!! Factory available Adapter bracket 
If your ICU looks like mine you will have make your own adapter
Do not waste your time looking for one Like I did  :wall:

The adapter the BMW sells is for bikes that have  the mounting bracket bolted to the frame
My very early Electronic ignition bike   the bracket is welded to the frame
See pictures below
 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 10:35:40 PM by mrclubike »
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline Tony Smith

  • Posts: 2274
  • Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2021, 10:28:04 AM »
Re charging voltage and onset.

I am not sure in understood your question,  but I have observed no changes in charging voltage or onset of charging. Nor would I expect a y change, they ignition and charging systems are unconnected.

Re brackets. I have bought brackets that mount where the bolts the R65 doesn't have at the rear of the tank go. This places the ICU upside down above the aircleaner ; fine for a flat pack filter,. It I suspect no so great for clamshell filters. These brackets are available from Munich Motors in Australia. I will photograph them tomorrow.

Other mounting options are cable tied to the main frame under the front of the fuel tank - a contact says they have been running their unit in that position for 10+ years on a bike not originally equipped with electronic ignition.

An option for early R100 and 1981 R65s is to simply drill the heatsink with holes the same a dry apart as the original ICU and use the original mount.

I asked one of the designers and was advised they were not only OK with that, they do it themselves. Simply used a transfer punch to mark centres and had at it in the drillpress.

Re  EI units. I noted the less advance than advertised, but ask set timing at 3,&00rpm it took a while for the penny to drop that there was a problem.

The thing does seem to be capable of 26 degrees of advance,. It there seems to be a variation due to heat, voltage, or both and it rarely exceeds 22 degrees.

I now set ignition, at 3.5k to an estimated 2 degrees less than full advance. If the ICU fails to fully advance I still have around 24 degrees of advance, and if it does then I have approx 28 degrees of advance. that will not stress the engine so I simply stopped worrying about it. This is less variation than I measured across a sample of early and late flywheels that led me to conclude that the Romanian guest worker employed at the factory to punch the flywheels had some random days.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline dogshome

  • Posts: 116
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2021, 02:02:58 PM »
I believe I understand the question of charging. i.e. Does the ignition unit save amps at lower revs. It seems the answer is no.

The "does it achieve 26 degrees" thing is most confusing to a simple electrical and control engineer with a lowly 36 years experience in electronics. Does it advance from the static setting (idle) at 6 degrees to full advance at 26 (+20) or not  :bath:

I can't imagine why any self respecting engineer can't get that right. They either a) have a good reason or b) something isn't being measured correctly.  :deal2:


Mantrap laid. Awaiting rapid response  :naughty:
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 02:15:18 PM by dogshome »
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline Tony Smith

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  • Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2021, 06:20:44 PM »
Can't help you as I have not static timed an airhead ignition for several decades (at least).

In the case of the Wedgetail unit I can tell you the advance feeds in smoothly as I watched the flywheel with a timing light while running up and down the rev range.

No idea what the WT ICU draws current wise, no relevance in measuring it, but I am told that due to the changed coil driving arrangements it probably draws less.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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  • Graduate, Wallace and Gromit School of Engineering
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2021, 08:53:57 PM »
As promised the ICU MoU the available from Munich motors

They are $10AU so I bought a set, but a better policy is to drill the Wedgetail heatsink to the same ole size/centre as the original ICU and mount in the original place. Langdon Green of Wedgetail says not only is this OK, he will do it for you if you ask.

It took me 20secs to mark the centres with a transfer Punch and, once I found my drills, another minute to make two holes. The WT unit is now mounted where the original was on the R100.

If you have no mounts at all, either Munich Motors or cable ties.

I am about to convert the wife's 1979 to WT ignition with an EI trigger so I will be using one of those two solutions
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline mrclubike

  • Posts: 1437
  • Jungheinrich Master Tech
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2021, 09:33:29 PM »
Re charging voltage and onset.

I am not sure in understood your question,  but I have observed no changes in charging voltage or onset of charging. Nor would I expect a y change, they ignition and charging systems are unconnected.

 

If the ICU is current limiting and has variable dwell
It will have less amp draw and  less load on the charging system  allowing  the charging voltage at Low Idle be higher

We may have discussed this already and it is possible the latter BMW  OEM ICU may have had this
So no gain going to a WT ICU will be had

Just trying to  find  more advantages to buy a Wedge tail  :)


My GM HEI system has both and I get 13.5 volts at low idle with the LED headlight on and 14.4 with the headlight off
But all I have to reference is the early OEM ICU and I can tell you it was only a OFF-ON switch just like   points  and it was a power HOG at idle
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 10:12:18 PM by mrclubike »
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2021, 09:45:15 PM »
Re charging voltage and onset.

 An option for early R100 and 1981 R65s is to simply drill the heat sink with holes the same a dry apart as the original ICU and use the original mount.


This is true except 

 Remember in my case I am talking about the very early electronic bean can R65
If you look at the pictures of my ICU and mounting bracket you will notice simply drilling the holes out is not an option
The larger ICU will be hitting the bottom of the tank
That is why I had to make a drop down bracket to clear the bottom of the tank
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 09:48:29 PM by mrclubike »
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline mrclubike

  • Posts: 1437
  • Jungheinrich Master Tech
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 10:01:04 PM »
I believe I understand the question of charging. i.e. Does the ignition unit save amps at lower revs. It seems the answer is no.

The "does it achieve 26 degrees" thing is most confusing to a simple electrical and control engineer with a lowly 36 years experience in electronics. Does it advance from the static setting (idle) at 6 degrees to full advance at 26 (+20) or not  :bath:

I can't imagine why any self respecting engineer can't get that right. They either a) have a good reason or b) something isn't being measured correctly.  :deal2:


Mantrap laid. Awaiting rapid response  :naughty:

The specified timing for the R65 with electronic ignition and single spark plug per cylinder  is supposed to be 6 BTDC at Idle plus 26 deg of mechanical advance for a total of 32 deg BTDC

The Emerald Island and ALPHA ICU had less than the advertised 26 deg
All 3 of mine only had 20 deg advance

The odd thing is they did make a 20 deg but it is for 2 plug per cyl bikes
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline dogshome

  • Posts: 116
Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2021, 10:11:02 AM »
I got that wrong before!  :-[

My R65 1983 should be 6 degrees static and 6+26 = 32 at full advance. I remember painting the 180-out flywheel marks now....

The strobe didn't show much fluctuation (jitter or jiggling) at full advance or anywhere in between, but I never scoped it to compare left/right. Old cars I've had with mechanical and vacuum advance flickered all over on the strobe. I'm watching this thread with interest though as the idea of electronic advance seems like something the bike should have been developed with by the 90s. One that gives the correct advance being an obvious benefit!
肉(r?u)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2021, 10:37:36 AM »
Have not kept up with upgrades for the ignition system, just curious, is this aftermarket system from Motorrad Elektrik for '81-'95 airheads the same as the two systems mentioned here ??



http://motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 10:39:08 AM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS ?
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline skippyc

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2021, 06:38:33 PM »
From looking at a BSA forum it seems that you need less advance for a two plug engine

Offline BPT

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Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2021, 12:52:26 PM »
Bob Roller - the one talked about here is completely new, developed in Australia by a guy named Mark Morrissey of MMM Boxerworks (and some other guys).
I only know of him from Facebook, he posts quite a bit and is knowledgeable, helpful and down to earth.  He's put a lot of info about  this on there but I can't copy/paste it for some reason.
As Tony said above, it's not meant for any super performance gains, just smooth, reliable starting and running.
Tony might be able to give more details and what's better about it than other modern ones?
1983 R65 w/ Velorex 562 Sidecar