The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2

Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: BPT on June 11, 2021, 11:44:58 PM

Title: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: BPT on June 11, 2021, 11:44:58 PM
Just an FYI for those wondering about these and who aren't on Facebook. Mark Morrissey posted today and said they'd finally gotten all of the components and have started assembling them so they'll be available shortly.
Unfortunately for the US (not only the US, each "region" will have only one dealer, not sure what that means for Europe/UK?) they'll only be available from one place (Tom Cutter).  Still no info on price and when they'll make it over here.
I have no connection, just thought I'd post it here since I remembered a couple of people talking about it recently.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 12, 2021, 04:28:55 PM
I have had a Wedgetail module for several months, I am expecting another module and two trigger units in the next week or so.


The module is the heart of it, I only bought trigger units because I am too lazy to rebuild old BMW units with locked ADV/RTD modules. I report that the module works and that I have confidence in the maker's testing procedure so I expect the relationship will be a long and happy one.


You will not get more power over a properly setup standard unit.
Some users report better fuel consumption - I have not seen this.

You will get:-

Better starting due to better control over the coil driving process (modern electronics)
Better idling (for the same reason as above)
True 26 degree advance - something my Emerald Isle unit doesn't do reliably

And best of all from the point of view of retrofitting to an older bike, the module simply does not care what coils you use - if they are a type used by BMW they will work - the coil drivers are robust enough so that the need to worry about coil resistance is history.

Oh and it has pretty little blue LEDs that monitor operation and make initial static timing setup a breeze.

I am very happy with the unit and you will be too.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: mrclubike on June 13, 2021, 10:15:38 PM
True 26 degree advance - something my Emerald Isle unit doesn't do reliably

You would not  believe the aggravation I went through trying  to get a EI ICU that would advance the 26 Deg as advertised
I tried 3 different  units  from 2 different suppliers and none of them worked
The one supplier did refund my money so I only have the one  but it  only gets 20 deg advance Like the other 2

I suspect the Wedge-tail ICU has been tested and will work as advertised

The only issue he may have is getting the air head community to try  another electronic advance type system after the issues Emerald Island and even BMW had with their failed attempt at a electronic advancing bean can

Locking the stock bean can is not a big deal
I  locked   mine the first time I got a EI ignition module but  had to buy their Can thinking that was the issure with the advance
Turned out it wasn't

Tony
Did you get an improvement in charging voltage at low Idle with the WT ICU over the stock ICU   

   
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: mrclubike on June 13, 2021, 10:30:08 PM
One More Issue that may pop up for some R65 Owners trying to convert to the later ICU package
My R65 is a very early electronic ignition bike (mfg 11/81)
Their is NO!!!! Factory available Adapter bracket 
If your ICU looks like mine you will have make your own adapter
Do not waste your time looking for one Like I did  :wall:

The adapter the BMW sells is for bikes that have  the mounting bracket bolted to the frame
My very early Electronic ignition bike   the bracket is welded to the frame
See pictures below
 
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 14, 2021, 10:28:04 AM
Re charging voltage and onset.

I am not sure in understood your question,  but I have observed no changes in charging voltage or onset of charging. Nor would I expect a y change, they ignition and charging systems are unconnected.

Re brackets. I have bought brackets that mount where the bolts the R65 doesn't have at the rear of the tank go. This places the ICU upside down above the aircleaner ; fine for a flat pack filter,. It I suspect no so great for clamshell filters. These brackets are available from Munich Motors in Australia. I will photograph them tomorrow.

Other mounting options are cable tied to the main frame under the front of the fuel tank - a contact says they have been running their unit in that position for 10+ years on a bike not originally equipped with electronic ignition.

An option for early R100 and 1981 R65s is to simply drill the heatsink with holes the same a dry apart as the original ICU and use the original mount.

I asked one of the designers and was advised they were not only OK with that, they do it themselves. Simply used a transfer punch to mark centres and had at it in the drillpress.

Re  EI units. I noted the less advance than advertised, but ask set timing at 3,&00rpm it took a while for the penny to drop that there was a problem.

The thing does seem to be capable of 26 degrees of advance,. It there seems to be a variation due to heat, voltage, or both and it rarely exceeds 22 degrees.

I now set ignition, at 3.5k to an estimated 2 degrees less than full advance. If the ICU fails to fully advance I still have around 24 degrees of advance, and if it does then I have approx 28 degrees of advance. that will not stress the engine so I simply stopped worrying about it. This is less variation than I measured across a sample of early and late flywheels that led me to conclude that the Romanian guest worker employed at the factory to punch the flywheels had some random days.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on June 14, 2021, 02:02:58 PM
I believe I understand the question of charging. i.e. Does the ignition unit save amps at lower revs. It seems the answer is no.

The "does it achieve 26 degrees" thing is most confusing to a simple electrical and control engineer with a lowly 36 years experience in electronics. Does it advance from the static setting (idle) at 6 degrees to full advance at 26 (+20) or not  :bath:

I can't imagine why any self respecting engineer can't get that right. They either a) have a good reason or b) something isn't being measured correctly.  :deal2:


Mantrap laid. Awaiting rapid response  :naughty:
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 14, 2021, 06:20:44 PM
Can't help you as I have not static timed an airhead ignition for several decades (at least).

In the case of the Wedgetail unit I can tell you the advance feeds in smoothly as I watched the flywheel with a timing light while running up and down the rev range.

No idea what the WT ICU draws current wise, no relevance in measuring it, but I am told that due to the changed coil driving arrangements it probably draws less.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 14, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
As promised the ICU MoU the available from Munich motors

They are $10AU so I bought a set, but a better policy is to drill the Wedgetail heatsink to the same ole size/centre as the original ICU and mount in the original place. Langdon Green of Wedgetail says not only is this OK, he will do it for you if you ask.

It took me 20secs to mark the centres with a transfer Punch and, once I found my drills, another minute to make two holes. The WT unit is now mounted where the original was on the R100.

If you have no mounts at all, either Munich Motors or cable ties.

I am about to convert the wife's 1979 to WT ignition with an EI trigger so I will be using one of those two solutions
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: mrclubike on June 14, 2021, 09:33:29 PM
Re charging voltage and onset.

I am not sure in understood your question,  but I have observed no changes in charging voltage or onset of charging. Nor would I expect a y change, they ignition and charging systems are unconnected.

 

If the ICU is current limiting and has variable dwell
It will have less amp draw and  less load on the charging system  allowing  the charging voltage at Low Idle be higher

We may have discussed this already and it is possible the latter BMW  OEM ICU may have had this
So no gain going to a WT ICU will be had

Just trying to  find  more advantages to buy a Wedge tail  :)


My GM HEI system has both and I get 13.5 volts at low idle with the LED headlight on and 14.4 with the headlight off
But all I have to reference is the early OEM ICU and I can tell you it was only a OFF-ON switch just like   points  and it was a power HOG at idle
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: mrclubike on June 14, 2021, 09:45:15 PM
Re charging voltage and onset.

 An option for early R100 and 1981 R65s is to simply drill the heat sink with holes the same a dry apart as the original ICU and use the original mount.


This is true except 

 Remember in my case I am talking about the very early electronic bean can R65
If you look at the pictures of my ICU and mounting bracket you will notice simply drilling the holes out is not an option
The larger ICU will be hitting the bottom of the tank
That is why I had to make a drop down bracket to clear the bottom of the tank
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: mrclubike on June 14, 2021, 10:01:04 PM
I believe I understand the question of charging. i.e. Does the ignition unit save amps at lower revs. It seems the answer is no.

The "does it achieve 26 degrees" thing is most confusing to a simple electrical and control engineer with a lowly 36 years experience in electronics. Does it advance from the static setting (idle) at 6 degrees to full advance at 26 (+20) or not  :bath:

I can't imagine why any self respecting engineer can't get that right. They either a) have a good reason or b) something isn't being measured correctly.  :deal2:


Mantrap laid. Awaiting rapid response  :naughty:

The specified timing for the R65 with electronic ignition and single spark plug per cylinder  is supposed to be 6 BTDC at Idle plus 26 deg of mechanical advance for a total of 32 deg BTDC

The Emerald Island and ALPHA ICU had less than the advertised 26 deg
All 3 of mine only had 20 deg advance

The odd thing is they did make a 20 deg but it is for 2 plug per cyl bikes
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on June 15, 2021, 10:11:02 AM
I got that wrong before!  :-[

My R65 1983 should be 6 degrees static and 6+26 = 32 at full advance. I remember painting the 180-out flywheel marks now....

The strobe didn't show much fluctuation (jitter or jiggling) at full advance or anywhere in between, but I never scoped it to compare left/right. Old cars I've had with mechanical and vacuum advance flickered all over on the strobe. I'm watching this thread with interest though as the idea of electronic advance seems like something the bike should have been developed with by the 90s. One that gives the correct advance being an obvious benefit!
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Bob_Roller on June 16, 2021, 10:37:36 AM
Have not kept up with upgrades for the ignition system, just curious, is this aftermarket system from Motorrad Elektrik for '81-'95 airheads the same as the two systems mentioned here ??



http://motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: skippyc on June 16, 2021, 06:38:33 PM
From looking at a BSA forum it seems that you need less advance for a two plug engine
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: BPT on June 17, 2021, 12:52:26 PM
Bob Roller - the one talked about here is completely new, developed in Australia by a guy named Mark Morrissey of MMM Boxerworks (and some other guys).
I only know of him from Facebook, he posts quite a bit and is knowledgeable, helpful and down to earth.  He's put a lot of info about  this on there but I can't copy/paste it for some reason.
As Tony said above, it's not meant for any super performance gains, just smooth, reliable starting and running.
Tony might be able to give more details and what's better about it than other modern ones?
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on June 17, 2021, 01:42:55 PM
My old (very oversquare) 2L 2V Vauxhall 4 cylinder used to ping horribly. Heavy, no torque and underpowered. I'm not sure twin plugs (and retarded timing) would have completely fixed that, but I remember the theory was that 500cc was really the limit for 2-valve carburetor & mechanically timed ignition engines: If you wanted reasonable performance and didn't want to (or couldn't) use high octane fuel.

80s on Saabs have a pre-pinking detection and automatic retard that is absolutely vital in a turbo petrol engine. Early Ford and Toyota turbos didn't have anything as advanced. Hence the 2.3 can be easily tuned up to 300 or 400HP and remain bullet proof. Early Cossies and 6 cylinder Supras conversely known for spectacular meltdowns. Of course Saabs generally eat their Vauxhall derived gearboxes (I did four), FWD tyres and engine mounts and bulkheads if not re-inforced. Vauxhall parts bin brakes on some versions also an embarrassment. Glowing discs and smoke not too unusual on the road.

I've got my 860 set to 6+26 degrees and have not heard any complaint from it. I am running Super unleaded with a few drops of Wynns Lead substitute though. It was 27C and humid yesterday, good for finding marginal pre-ignition. The relatively low R65 gearing probably helps to get through any overly heavy loads also. By the time it loads-up, the air is doing 70 or more MPH over the heads and similarly down it's throat and we are past 4000RPM and the potentially clinky zone.

I don't know the comparatives of a BSA air cooled vertical twin or 500 single. The boxer does have ideal cooling and simple rounded head/piston shapes on it's side. I imagine the RPMs and ignition timings might be similar though?
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 17, 2021, 07:05:35 PM
"Tony might be able to give more details and what's better about it than other modern ones?"

My experience is not really that extensive in terms of current relevance.

I have experience of:-

POINTS - easy to set up, pretty reliable and able to be diagnosed/repaired by the side of the road. I carry a rare "points in a can" with me when I go away. Not the best from a technological point of view, but points will get you home.

PIRHANA optical trigger ignition. Mercifully these have passed into history. The idea was sound - a plastic cut out disc pressed over the points can with a "C" section  plastic casting containing a LED and a receptor feeding a signal to an electronic coil driver. The problems were many and varied, sometimes simply wiping the emitter/receptor clean would get you going, other times the under-spec transistors switching the coil would fail. I got pretty good at replacing those, but the manufacturer started to "pot" the control box in epoxy rendering them irreparable. When they worked, they worked pretty well - still used the mechanical ADV/RTD. Eventually the unreliability issues combined with BMW introducing their own electronic ignition killed the market. If you ever find one, do not even think of using it.

BOYER BRANSDEN.  The first electronic ignition to incorporate electronic ADV/RTD. The only problems with these are that the advance starts feeding at cranking speed and is all-in very early. These things are tough and reliable, my 1978 RS has been using one since the early 80s and the wife's R65/80 has had one since 1987. The problems are the brutal way the advance feeds and the fact that the advance never stops - more revs equals more advance, right up to destruction. In my view these are still usable, they are also much cheaper than anything else available. For a long time there was no model to retrofit electronic beancans. There is now.

BMW electronic beancans. The one we all know and either swear by or swear at. Eventually they require a mechanical rebuild for which you get to make your own parts. Replacing the hall effect transistor is a bastard of a job.

EMERALD ISLE - sold under what ever name your importer chose to give them. The good is a superbly made beancan replacement that allows by the side of the road hall effect replacement. The can also has all the hardware to fit a second hall effect, either for redundancy or for twin plugging. the ICU incorporates electronic ADV/RTD which DOES NOT WORK AS CLAIMED. You can work around the issue, but later ICUs have a sad record of failure. Lastly the manufacturer has disappeared leaving importers to handle warranty from whatever stock they have according to their conscience. If you can pick up a EI beancan to use with an electronic advance ICU then do so, but avoid EI ICUs.

ABRIZ - another electronic ADV/RTD wannabe. They make a replacement hall effect carrier for the standard beancan which is pretty neat. BUT the ICU reliability is crap, utter crap. I fitted three of these before binning them, not one lasted more than 1000km. Identifiable by a roughly painted "advanced" on the ICU. They are pretty cheap and to be fair, for reasons I have never worked out, the bike that ate them also are a Bosch ICU. I have a question mark over ABRIZ ignitions.

WEDGETAIL. I have had an ICU for a while and I have sufficient faith in the manufacturer's ability that I have invested $1k in ICUs and beancans to convert out other bikes. When the cans arrive I will open one up and post photos.

Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on June 19, 2021, 01:02:48 PM
Hi Tony, that is a pretty comprehensive reply  :tekst-toppie:   I remember Piranha and had one fitted (to something!) as I also remember the nice sticker that came with it. What was it!! Mini? Rover V8 (that had a transistor in the dizzy), Fiat 131 Mirafiori.... Maybe. Argh! I can't remember!  :wall:

Keith.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 20, 2021, 10:54:05 PM
I got goodies in the mail today.

Going to be a hot time on the bike lift tonight

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mEZVp1JhFcz9cuYa7
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 20, 2021, 11:00:46 PM
Pretties on display.

Bob, please note the holes in the heatsink, this allows fitment to the understand mount on my 1981 RS. I am thinking that would work for you too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uhQZLmQYuWpqptMC8
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 20, 2021, 11:04:10 PM
Lastly, a peek inside the can. Room for a second trigger and easy fitting. I didn't take the inner plate off as I think you need to press it off the outer bearing and I didn't have a 5mm bolt handy



https://photos.app.goo.gl/RT5D2PZTSdjyb26Y7

Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on June 21, 2021, 02:20:24 AM
Lastly, a peek inside the can. Room for a second trigger and easy fitting. I didn't take the inner plate off as I think you need to press it off the outer bearing and I didn't have a 5mm bolt handy



https://photos.app.goo.gl/RT5D2PZTSdjyb26Y7

Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: jp9094 on June 21, 2021, 09:55:20 PM
FYI, someone on the Facebook BMW airheads page posted a video by the owner of Wedgetail. He shows the inside of the beancan in a bit more detail than your photos Tony. There is also a nice video on the USA website: www.wedgetailusa.com .Might be worth a look.

FWIW

Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: mrclubike on June 22, 2021, 08:08:12 PM

An option for early R100 and 1981 R65s is to simply drill the heatsink with holes the same a dry apart as the original ICU and use the original mount.

Sorry Tony
I didn't relies what you were talking about
Now that I see the picture of the ICU
Looks like drilling holes into the heat sink would work  on the early R65
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on June 29, 2021, 11:17:22 AM
Not sure whether to pst in this thread or start another. Anyhoo.

The cost of the Wedgetail system is at the upper end. Not unexpected and not as much as it could have been. But it is in excess of the Silent Hektik crankshaft sensor type with automatic advance, cabling and new dual coil. Ignoring shipping costs half way round the globe (which is quite reasonable) and it's still very similar numbers. Adding the bean can blanking plate brings things level. This has prompted me to look at the SH system again though.

SH crankshaft sensor with potentially more accurate sparking due to being measured in the right place.
WT very neat bolt on package that looks (and probably is) very durable.

I don't mind some non-standard wiring. I don't need adjustable timing as I'm unlikely to dual plug this bike.

 :dizzy2:



Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: georgesgiralt on June 29, 2021, 11:51:13 AM
Hello,
I can understand the need for this device for bikes fitted with points. And even there it is marginal.
But on post 1981 models fitted with the bean can and ICU, I can't think of any reason this device will be useful ?
If you worry the Hall sensor fail, buy 5 of them (a two hour job to replace one) and find a couple ICU either from BMW or second hand from Motorworks or similar usual suspect.
On my bike, the hall sensor failed after 30 years and 200 000 km use. So I expect the new one to survive me...
I won't be able to justify the cost to the missus ......
But this is just my opinion and worth less than 2...
Have a nice day !
Stay safe !
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on June 29, 2021, 12:44:38 PM
You are of course completely correct  ;D

I have a sensor from eBay in case the 40 year old original decides to retire. On the other hand... My XT500 had a grasstrack cam, bigger valves, huge Amal carb, 12V electrics, roller swingarm bearings, a tuned exhaust (after much cutting and welding), a capacity increase, higher gearing, dual leading shoe front brake and electronic ignition. Why? Well it ran really well and would embarrass 750 fours around town.

The current car only has the swirl flaps removed, the intake water spout removed, EGR bypass, a BSR remap and all four brakes uprated in disc size, caliper and pads. Fiat engine with Saab petrol intercooler and uprated Aero suspension was just asking for it. The previous one had the full 3" exhaust, PTFE heat shield, Piston dump valve, Konis, various chassis braces, BSR stage III remap, additional engine mountings (to stop it throwing itself out), ideal turbo wheels etc. That one made fun of V12 Astons.

My 250 RD had MK I Micron exhausts, RD400 carbs and reed blocks, somewhat modified ports (think 1lb of aluminium on floor after grinding), flattened and machined heads and had more hp than my R65. Great fun on L plates at the time.

So my needs have quelled over the years, but the modding bug still bites  :beehive:
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on July 05, 2021, 05:26:10 AM
No comments on the Silent Hektik crank mounted system?
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: BPT on July 05, 2021, 10:01:51 PM
Not sure if it's been absolutely finalized but looks like it will be $500 in the US.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on July 06, 2021, 02:06:59 PM
350 GBP for basic Wedgetail including carriage (which is not unreasonable).

250 GBP for Silent Hektik trigger and unit similar to above.

350 GBP for SH with coil and other parts.


Even in Aus, I'd be presented with a decision to make. Delivery from Europe for us (stupid, neanderthal) Brits post-Brexit is still dodgy and expensive. Delivery from Aus therefore not much different. Delivery to Aus from Germany established for years and probably not an issue. I like the crank sensor position of the SH system, the Wedgetail looks simple to fit and indestructible. 100 is lot (a LOT) of beer though  :beerchug:

Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on July 07, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
A two part reply.

Firstly, why replace the BMW beancan? There are 2 major reasons for doing this, firstly to get rid of the mechanical advance and retard, and secondly because they are old
 The last time I set out to rebuild a beancan I found the bushes were all worn, the ADV/RTD springs were slack and the posts they mounted to were worn. All perfectly repairable and done properly the rebuilt beancan will outlast all of us.

But, I get more pleasure riding my bike than I do merely working on them so it was a no-brainer to update.

Like others I still carry a carefully hoarded "points in a can" beancan in case I need a "get me home". But I may stop that now and simply carry a spare hall effect as I reckon I could change that in under 30 minutes. In fact I might even pre-fit one and that way all I would need to do is flip the switch on the Wedgetail ICU..
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Sejati on July 11, 2021, 07:01:14 AM
Anyone can share the link to purchase the new Electronic Ignition module by Wedgetail?
Interested to try one of this unit.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: Tony Smith on July 11, 2021, 05:56:06 PM
The only way to currently buy is via your regional distributor, or if there isn't one, by emailing the manufacturers.

https://wedgetailsystems.com.au/
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on August 24, 2021, 10:05:42 AM
There is another system from Euro Moto Electrics that I just noticed. It is a crank mounted system with what looks like an optical pickup.

It appears there are drawbacks: Not designed for use with electronic ignition coils, only higher impedance points type. Suggestion of EMC interference even if installed as per instructions. Warnings about having the wrong HT resistors. Nasty screw terminals on the control box. Other wiring mods required on late model bikes.

Some nice reviews of the Wedgetail are appearing now, although the Silent Hektik has nothing but praise where I've seen it online. The Guzzi guys seem quite happy with their version.

 :lurker:
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 04, 2021, 04:53:50 PM
So Silent Hektik 314.00 with coil and bean can drive cover delivered from BMWBayer to my door in 4 days.
Parts being swapped between wasp/hornet visits and should be testing sometime tomorrow.

I've stripped the bean can as I have a hall sensor from China some months/year ago (which took ages to arrive and does work). The can is in good condition, although the top and bottom bushings (internal) are dry. Not SNAFU, but I'm glad I looked. Burnt remnants of grease. New springs on order. Red grease will be put on here and there and on the shaft and inner thrust washers. Oil on the plain bushes. Then it can go in my box of 'good' spares.

The SH trigger is going to be a royal pain to get in the right place, I had the same trouble on a 2 stroke conversion to something. but the crank is marked nd I have a strobe. Erm, does anyone know the rod length on an R65 as I have a dial gauge and will double check my marking (set by wire in plug hole and printed gauge on the crank).

R65 rod length anyone?  ???
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 05, 2021, 02:17:24 PM
Pics attached.

Fitting.
1. The sensor sat just right without any trouble. I set it 180 degrees out so it matches my 180 out flywheel! The 180 out painted timing marks line up on the strobe perfectly.
2. Connection is very easy. They give you a 3 pin plug which simply goes in where the old unit comes out. Connect red to red, blue to blue, black to black on the flying leads, heatshrink over these and the spares. Black is black on the loom, blue is brown and red is green with stripe.
3. Coil fits using aluminium bracket as shown on my 83. Easy.
4. Control unit goes where the old one was (but note I dropped it using flat washers on the handy heatsink fins). The holes are just a tadge too high for the tank. Easy.
5. Curve B is almost standard and 8000RPM limiter setting A.

Running.
1. Start and idle is obviously improved.
2. I had to back out the idle screws about 1/8 turn. I thought the timing was wrong initially, but it is spot on. The sparks are very noticeable with the plugs out so I guess the new coil and triple spark is making a difference.
3. Pulling away is very positive.

So all good. Took all day (it was hot!) and I also tidied up some other wiring whilst in there. It'll get a good run on Tuesday so we'll see how it goes when really hot.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 06, 2021, 02:28:50 PM
There is indeed more "Draft from the Cellar". Nothing serious like the 860 kit, but more like a modern engine at tickover and pulling away. Smooth and steady. Everything else feels the same. I don't intend testing the rev limiter. The bike has never had to go above 7,000 since I've had it. The minor clatter from the gearbox with the clutch out sitting at idle has also gone.

As well as backing out the idle screws, I can see the idle mixture can also be leaned out as it is rich now. No choke at all to start in 20C today. There is more engine braking as a result of the closed throttles. You ntice the engine has one rev of the starter before firing and not kicking off as soon as a piston hits TDC. You would never know unless you did it / felt it before and after. It's zzip-Brmmm where it was zz-Brmmm or zzzz.zzzz.zzzz.Brmm depending on choke and weather!

My bean can was in good condition and the timing was exactly the same at idle before and after. Verified by strobe and the 180-out factory markings and my painted marks set with piston stop / bit of wire and counting teeth on the other side of the crank. The coil was a relatively new brown type when I got it so no issues there. So the triple spark and multiple trigger calculation must be doing something.

I know it is a very subjective comparison, but based on what I see, understand about the engineering and feel, the HEKTIK may have the advantage over the Wedgtail in performance  :beehive:

The Wedgetail is obviously easier to fit (although the Hektik is a one beer job) and easier to time in (Hektic was almost as easy). Price is comparable, although Wedgetail is slightly pricier.


So a bit of a personal consumer review for you  :)
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 07, 2021, 02:57:07 PM
Curve B is a bit hot for 860. Sustained tinkling at 3500 RPM in top gear up hill. 28C. I had a transient rattle very occasionally on the bean can on hot days, which is OK. Consistent rattling not good! So I'll try the flat version A (B is inverse expo).

I believe the standard curve is flat / linear and finishes a bit earlier than the Hektik. The expo curve ramps up faster. Both technically 32 degrees at >4500RPM.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 09, 2021, 04:44:53 AM
Silent Hektik surprised me when I asked about timing and would not offer anything knowing it's an 860. They suggested I ask Siebenrock, which I cheekily did. They also think the flat curve (like standard) rather than the hump-back early expo curve may sort it.

I also think that the high compression and non-ideal combustion chamber shape with huge bore/stroke ratio of the 860 kit is contributing, which is why there was some brief pinking with standard ignition. The hump-back ignition curve just making it worse in mid RPMs.

My thinking was also that the triple spark was tosh, but certainly the sparks given are very bright with the SH coil. Possibly another reason to back off the timing?

Sorry for lots of posts, but this info does not seem to exist on the web, which is why I'm typing  :bmw_smiley:
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 10, 2021, 12:28:02 PM
I've plotted the standard bean can, SH "Steil" and "Flach" timing curves. I have assumed the bean can ends somewhere over 3000 rpm and is linear. The "Flach" is not as flat as it appears on the SH charts as the RPM axis is not linear. This is what they all look like on a linear scale.

Bean can yellow
Flat red
Steep blue

Since I had some pinging on hot days around 3500-4000 RPM on the bean can, I've set curve 8 which is 30 degrees and "flat". 

Guzzis and Porsche flatties tend to aim down to 30 degrees with high compression and 98RON according to what info I can find. The engine felt hard on 32 "Steil" and had continuous and obvious pinging in top at the same 3500-4000 and heavy load. The springs in my bean can were slightly stretched, although the timing light showed normal advance finishing around 3000. Perhaps that was actually incorrect and the full advance should have finished a bit higher. Hence the intermittent pings.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 11, 2021, 01:26:59 PM
30 degrees and "flat" timing has slight ping here and there until the temperature dropped later today below 20C and then all fine. I've weakened the idle jets 1/16 and the tickeover is absolutely rock solid. like an electric motor! I am running the coldest (and recommended)  NGK 7 heat range plugs.

As you know my R65 flywheel / clutch carrier is not in the right position. I thought it was 180 out, but of course with 5 mounting bolts it can only be 0, 72, 114, 216 or 288 degrees out.

I timed up using a probe down the plug hole and the bean can was set about half way in it's travel to get that. I put a paint blob where the static timing was on my clutch carrier. Strobed static and all ran fine with very occasional ping under heavy load on a very hot day.

Now I have my Silent Hektik ignition, I am getting more pinging at the recommended (for STANDARD bikes) 32 degrees and steep (early advance) curve and a much improved idle. Retarding it by using the flatter (not as flat as the bean can) curve and 30 degree full advance has almost got rid of the problem. I timed it by using the factory marks with the sensor 180 out. My painted mark lined up static as it did before. I don't have a full advance mark.

I'm completely confused now though. The crank can't be 180 out as it has 5 mounting holes. That is unless the big ends are set 36 degrees away from the bolts. Which looking at crank pics online, looks about right! So 0 is -36, 72 is 36, 114 is 78, 216 is 180 (!!!) and 288 is 252.

Can anyone confirm this please. I don't plan on getting the clutch out just to re-align the timing marks. I feel I may be 2 or 3 degrees over-advanced static but definitely not 36! If the crank is (sy) 40 degrees or 30 degrees in relation to the 5 mounting bolts, then that is the problem.

(Additionally, if anyone does know R65 rod length that will help as I have a dial gauge that I can angle down the plug hole)

 :drowning:
 :drowning:
 :drowning:
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: georgesgiralt on September 11, 2021, 01:59:57 PM
Just thinking out loud : could it be that in your engine cylinders are inverted ? We know that both are at TDC at the same time due to the crank construction. If you put the one with the two valves closed (in firing position) at the opposite, you have your 180 discrepancy ? What about the camshaft ? is it properly set up and aligned ?
I do not know if this setup is possible ?
If you find what is wrong, I would be delighted to know !
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 12, 2021, 05:45:26 AM
I know the PO had the clutch out at a BMW dealer early on and that the barrels had been off as a 650 at some point as the RH head gasket was not the right way around (rubbing on pushrod!). I don't believe the cam chain has been out but it could have been. Everything being timed out is a possibility.  :dizzy2:

She was running fine as a 650 although the timing was retarded according to my primitive wire gauge. That was adjusted and coincidentally the bean can then sat in the middle of it's slots. Still no issues and running on 97RON with occasional use of 95 but no real hot weather. That is when I put my painted S mark on.

The ping started with the 860 kit in very hot weather, a transient thing that seemed like an old auto engine problem i.e. they all do it. What I can see on the web is odd tales of pinging with Siebenrock kits, but no-one ever getting to the bottom of it or reporting back if they did. The Hektik ignition (or my fitting of it) is what made the problem a PROBLEM.


I now think (oh dear) that the Siebenrock 9.5:1 is marginal on the standard timing and jetting. The more aggressive SH curve combined with a lack of accuracy by me of a couple degrees has pushed it over the edge.

So, armed with torch and marker pen, we shall be counting teeth. If my timing mark falls 112/2 =56 teeth from the S mark, then I can measure where TDC and full advance should be by the same method. There are a lot of error additions here though including the parallax problem with the window. If someone does find R65 rod length, then with a suitably wonky probe I might be able to get another comparator with dial gauge. If I ever take the clutch out, the carrier is getting put back on the right way round!!  :wall:
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 12, 2021, 09:13:27 AM
Chicken nuggets for brains here.

My timing marks (which I set using a probe) are 32 teeth away from the factory marks. Not 55. The factory OT mark is somewhere about 20 degrees down the bore. The crank definitely isn't 180 out. My marks are 3 teeth apart as well which puts static timing at least 3 degrees advanced and I think probably several more.

I can get an almost straight shot down the lug hole and IF I can find my dial gauge (from 40 years ago) we might be in business.
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 12, 2021, 12:31:23 PM
111 teeth. Timing marks a country mile out of anything that makes sense. I found TDC within 1/2 tooth and set idle 2 teeth above that.

Much twiddling of the Hektik timing flags even with locking tool I made and screwdriver in ring gear.

It all looks sensible now. Will get out later in the week
Title: Re: Wedgetail Ignition Closer To Being Available
Post by: dogshome on September 18, 2021, 12:27:30 PM
A picture of my brain is shown below for your reference and amusement.

Now I have the timing measured with some accuracy and the temptation to chisel off the standard marks has gone, the bike is back to her wonderful self complete with time-warp effect from the lights. Now you see me, now you don't. No pinking or signs of hard running on 97 RON and the recommended Silent Hektik touring settings.

 :)

[sorry for lots of posts, if I upset anyone, please ask a mod to move this stuff to another thread!]