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Author Topic: I used to be a Rat Bike...  (Read 40027 times)

Offline tunnelrider

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2019, 02:52:06 AM »
Yeah ged, well done on the roadworthy!  Nothing better to encourage your confidence knowing if you get pulled up for speeding you won't get pinged for anything else. I also would like to see a pic or two of the vapour blaster.  Reckon my old man's home made compressor I have in my garage would be well capable of 3HP.  Speaking of that, I thought it'd be more pressure dependent?  The air tank on my old man's compressor is twice as large as cheap modern electric ones.  I'll look at the kW rating next time I'm in the garage.

Your petrol cap may be better than you think - you can get new rain flaps for them if that's your problem?  I've never bothered locking my cap.  If your cap catches and 'ratchets' there's a fix for that also, involving drilling a few small screws into it if I recall reading a couple of times a while ago. Pretty sure it's easily found by a search on the net.

The 'new' tank does look alright although the pin stripes seem to be sitting on the creases of the of the top/sides of the tank more than what I thought was OEM, from my look at your photo.  Here's a pic of my repainted tank (prob been repainted before also no doubt)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:49:42 PM by Justin B. »
'85 Black R65 / '74 GT185 / '83 Pantah 500 / '01 DRZ400 dirt only

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2019, 03:23:17 AM »
Cheers fellas. I’ll get around to resizing some photos and give you a brief description later tonight, (I hope...)

Yeah Tunnelrider, the poor old tank has done a few versions I think. It looks like it was originally red so I suspect when the paint comes off it, it’ll have plenty of previous repairs as well. We’ll see. Rusty as buggery inside as well, but that’s treatable.

The cap! The lock barrel is already floating in the hole and it was missing its seal but the bigger isssue is that the pressed steel threaded male section, is spinning in its holder. I’m not sure that it’s rebuildable?

Hey! I just noticed that you have an ‘83 Pantah in your signature? No way! Me too.

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2019, 03:42:32 AM »
The cap is fixable, but will not be lockable.  See Snowbum's site for a "discussion" of where to drill and where to insert self-tapping screws to lock the top and bottom halves together.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2019, 04:38:26 AM »
Quote
The cap is fixable, but will not be lockable.  See Snowbum's site for a "discussion" of where to drill and where to insert self-tapping screws to lock the top and bottom halves together.

Excellent! Thanks Tony. I’m not too worried about lockable, more focused on breathable at the moment! I’ve got a generic ‘Supercheap’ screw in cap on it, which fits fine but doesn’t bloody breath. It caught me out a couple of times when I first put the tank back on it. Just went onto the left cylinder about 2 kms from home... took a few minutes to figure out what was going on. I locked it down for the inspection too, and then forgot about it. 2 kms....

I’ve drilled a hole in the bugga now, so it breaths but its not particularly watertight, which is asking for trouble.

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2019, 06:01:00 PM »
Well, that sux... I spent over an hour last night doing a long winded explanation of my vapour blaster, resized the photos and was just about to upload it all when our internet connection fell over... lost the lot! Dang. So, I’ll just upload some photos and I’m sure you guys can figure it all out.

First up though, I threw this together with bits and pieces I had lying around at the time about 4 years ago. It ain’t pretty! But, it does work. In an ideal world, it would be water tight and lose no water or blast media outside the system. Mine rarely does any work so it lives out the back of my shed in the graveyard, and overflows everywhere, but you might want to be more particular if it’s actually inside!

The first couple of photos date from when I put it together and the last photos, more recently.I bought a 20kg bag of glass bead blast media when I built it and still have a few kg left.

The system is basically a swimming pool pump sucking from the lower outlet of the 20L drum (about an inch or so off the bottom) and the pump outlet is then split into 2. One line feeds a generic sandblasting gun in the blast chamber with the compressed air added and the other outlet is returned back to the 20L drum about 4 inches off the bottom, with an elbow (I think) inside directing the flow back towards the bottom of the 20L drum, agitating the slurry mix and keeping the glass beads in suspension.

From memory, the unit that I copied had a windscreen wiper of some sort adapted to the inside of the blast chamber but I haven’t gotten around to that. It would be great though. You really need to clean the screen every few seconds to retain reasonable visability. I use a garden hose also inside the blast chamber and just squirt the screen every now and again to clear it, thus causing the water overflow... I’m sure someone could come up with something better.

The glass bead media is apparently innocuous, but because my system isn’t particularly well sealed, I always wear a mask and eye protection of some sort. I’m sure breathing the vapour isn’t good for you. Again, more time and effort would improve this.

Anyway, there’s the basic template. I’m sure you guys could come up with something prettier, cleaner and more efficient, but mine is great for the amount of work it does and it does a great job. Good luck with it!







« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:55:35 PM by Justin B. »

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2019, 05:07:32 AM »
Well, that escalated quickly.... My advice would be to be very careful placing “Wanted” ads online. Oh dear, I’ve almost collected the entire bodywork of second bike! And I would stop soon, except there are more little bits still to go.

My latest pickup yielded some nice original parts from an R45 custom conversion, and because the guy was moving house, it was very well priced....

The seat looks in really nice original condition! 35 years old. Wow. Except for the one downside. It’s brown. Argh! It’ll look just kack with the blue! I can’t believe it. Everyone building customs wants a brown seat. Except me. I’d be the only bloke in Australia who doesn’t want a brown seat. Can’t belive it.

It seems the custom builders all retain the original header pipes and crossovers etc as well, so that is the one item that is proving elusive, (nearly everything else has been pretty easily obtainable).

The fabricated headers on my bike are 38mm, welded onto 35mm stubs at the head. These mufflers are 35mm, so I might have to roll up some adapter sleeves to get it all to fit until I can track down some original headers. It’s way too loud as it is at the moment with the Megaphonies, so I’m looking forward to making it a little more civil.

Ive put over 200Km’s on it on it over the past week or however long it’s been registered, and it’s going beautifully! (except for the starter motor self engaging. ) I haven’t rebuilt the carbs yet so there was plenty of popping and farting going on for a while, but they’ve cleared out pretty well ands it’s starting first touch of the button and is running along nicely.

Today’s haul also gives me enough parts to get the rear end mostly back to standard, but I’m actually a bit reluctant to chop up the existing modified single seat conversion, which has a small rack area and little welded frame that keeps the pannier bags off the wheel. It all actually works pretty well together, so I figure I should just find another original rear subframe (plenty of them around) and save the entire single seat setup as is. What it lacks in aesthetics, it makes up for in utility. It’s handy.

It’s not just parts that jump out at you from wanted ads either. It’s whole bikes. I’m talking to a bloke locally who has an R65LS that needs some seeeerious work, but it looks well worth saving. I have neither the time, money nor space for another motorcycle project, but that has never stopped me in the past! I love LS’s...









« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:57:29 PM by Justin B. »

Offline tunnelrider

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2019, 02:17:19 AM »
Yeah man, those LS parts look in good nick.  Ged you seem to come by racks quite a lot, lucky. That single seat you have too, primo. I've only had panniers and double seat for carrying things, often wished for a small rack but never persevered.

Thanks for your pics of your vapour blaster, it gives good shiny results which is important, doesn't matter how you get there! It works that's important.  I've always been put off bead blasting by manuals (or was it Snowbum) that say it's hard to remove it all from the insides, where you don't want it.

Quote
Hey! I just noticed that you have an ‘83 Pantah in your signature? No way! Me too.
Ha ha, funny we own both the 80's beasts.  TBH I find the R65 more nimble than the Pantah and a much more useful bike in general, the R65 will go anywhere and get itself out. Oh doesn't quite have the same looks tho  ;)  PM me some time on it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 03:36:57 AM by tunnelrider »
'85 Black R65 / '74 GT185 / '83 Pantah 500 / '01 DRZ400 dirt only

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2019, 05:06:49 AM »
Yep, the original post that got lost while posting it, came with a whole paragraph warning that this machine is “DEATH” to virtually all bearing surfaces! It is indeed very difficult to remove all the residual blast media. But,... if your very aware of the potential and therefore pay the required attention to multiple cycles of water rinses and air blasting and water and air and... you’ll eventually get there. In my experience so far anyway, (famous last words).

I don’t use it very often, but yeah it’s a very effective tool when used on most surfaces.

Yeah, it’s an interesting comparison between the Pantah and the R65. They’re both ‘83 models and probably cost roughly the same amount at the time, so it’s a valid comparison although my Pantah is only a 500. They’re both busy little engines! I had the R65 on a stretch between the interchanges on the highway the other day and it was revving it’s poor head(s) off at 120klm/hr. You don’t really tend to notice how busy the Pantah is at the same rate. The R65 is obviously geared a little shorter and I’d be looking at changing sprockets on the Pantah! :)

The flip side of course is that the R65 is like a tractor around the hills and dales that I actually live amongst. Plonk it into 4th or even 5th at 80K’s and it’s just perfect. There aren’t very many straight bits around here, so it’s suits the local terrain entirely. The rebuilt front end feels great and the Yss’s on the rear are compliant and well controlled. It’s pretty sure footed although I’m grounding out an exhaust clamp on the right and the dodgy centre stand foot on the left and it will need a new set of rubber sooner rather than later as well.

I’m really enjoying it so far, and I’m enjoying bringing it back from the brink as well!

The only thing that worries me on the R65 are the exhaust valves and seats. They’re a notorious weak spot. I’ve no idea of ithis bikes history, so I’d like to eventually have that done to ensure it keeps going for a very long time to come.









Offline tunnelrider

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2019, 05:17:24 PM »
Quote
The only thing that worries me on the R65 are the exhaust valves and seats. They’re a notorious weak spot. I’ve no idea of ithis bikes history, so I’d like to eventually have that done to ensure it keeps going for a very long time to come.
Yes good idea to be conscious of this, OEM exhaust valve seat regression occurs more quickly riding at sustained high revs (6K+) and will be something to watch carefully if your bike has done a high amount of km's.  An early warning of seat regression is that the valve clearances always require backing off when doing a tune up.  A late warning of impending failure is an intermittent metallic valve noise, clearly heard at idle, different to the normal, noisy boxer valve chatter!  I ignored this for a month or two, rode 500km over that time then had an exhaust valve seat failure at 173,000 km.  It didn't ruin the cylinders or piston, but was expensive paying for the recondition of the heads, new valves and oversize valve guides.  At least they've been done now though.

The only other breakdown I've had with my R65 was the timing chain separating at 184,000 km, it'd been changed previously I presume once before, as the max recommended replacement interval is 80K km.  I was a bit slack on that one.  Once again, no harm done to the engine but was only taking off from lights, not doing 100km/h... I don't want to alarm you unnecessarily but if the distance on your odo is over a multiple of 80,000km you may want to consider this.

A good judge on timing chain wear (or more correctly chain sprocket wear) can be found while doing the timing as part of a tune up.  Advanced sprocket wear causes the timing marks to appear to be a double image when doing the timing by strobe light through the timing hole.  This will mean the timing chain's been on for a long time. (Unless someone's just replaced the chain without replacing the sprocket but it'd have to be a pretty lazy owner or unscrupulous shop to do that.)

Quote
Yeah, it’s an interesting comparison between the Pantah and the R65. They’re both ‘83 models and probably cost roughly the same amount at the time, so it’s a valid comparison although my Pantah is only a 500. They’re both busy little engines! I had the R65 on a stretch between the interchanges on the highway the other day and it was revving it’s poor head(s) off at 120klm/hr. You don’t really tend to notice how busy the Pantah is at the same rate. The R65 is obviously geared a little shorter and I’d be looking at changing sprockets on the Pantah! :-)
The short gearing on the R65 does make it good for getting away ok but I agree, over 120km/h they're running out of legs.  Like you I've got nice twisty roads on my doorstep that suit the smaller capacity bikes. I agree also the Pantah does seem less busy at 120km/h with more headroom, but not a whole lot more.  The R65 will sit on 6000rpm at 130km/h easily enough to chew up the k's.

Yeah changing the sprockets on the Pantah! My one came with a 15T front sprocket which made the gearing even more ridiculously high. I had to ride the clutch to get underway and sometimes change to 1st following traffic!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 05:27:28 PM by tunnelrider »
'85 Black R65 / '74 GT185 / '83 Pantah 500 / '01 DRZ400 dirt only

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike... Re Exhaust valves etc.
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2019, 05:36:53 PM »
My advice given the lack of knowledge regarding the history is to change valves more or less immediately - they are after all so much cheaper than an engine rebuild.

I have a photo used to scare "youngsters" that shows what happens when an exhaust valve drops - and an OEM R65 is good for a valve drop any time after 50,000km (and yes that will buy me an argument in some quarters, but at one stage I had a collection of ruined R65 engines that had all dropped valves and they all had around that mileage).

Intervalve, sold by Motobins, are a good alternative to OEM (I use them, but then as my valves are somewhat larger than stock there is no OEM path for me). Lead free seats are available and a bit cheaper than BMW, but if you have stock sized valves, OEM is probably best - it took BMW a couple of goes to get it right, but in the end they did.

That said, if your seats are still serviceable I'd be inclined to "suck it and see" as replacing seats is not trivial and you may not need to - just monitor tappet clearances and if they do not sudden;y start closing up - golden.

The big thing is to use a quality machine shop that knows what they are doing! Butchers have ruined countless BMW heads. There is nothing difficult about working on them, but there is a skill-set needed. Any shop that works on VW air-cooled heads will have all the necessary skills/experience.

If your valve guides have not shifted I would be inclined to not replace them - have them K-lined which gives you pretty much the same life as a new guide, and when the insert wears out, the machine shop can replace the insert in minutes. Using a K-line does reduce the contact area of the stem in contact with the guide and some have argued that this effects heat transfer. They are correct, it does, and the difference is about the same as the difference in a rider's speed over a good hill, with and without a pre-ride bladder emptying.

Whilst getting the new valves have your rockers refaced. BMW were notoriously parsimonious with the depth of their hardening treatment so after your rockers have been refaced, take them to a black smith and have the contact areas properly hardened (preferably an old Blacksmith who still has, and knows how to use hardening treatments containing cyanide like "Hardite").

If in the process of refacing the rockers the existing needle roller bearing shells are destroyed (ask me) don't despair, they are catalogue bearings (bless you bmw) and you will need to make up a mandrel, shaft and sleeve to press out the old ones and press the new ones in. When pressing in the new bearings - all the rollers should be present (ask me how many bearings it took to learn this) to spread the load and avoid caving in the end of a brand
 new shell.

BTW, the first sign that you have picked a good machine shop is that they fit the keepers to the valves and ensure that the valve is free to rotate inside them and that the retaining ridges int he valves match the keepers perfectly. My original keepers were rejected by my shop, but the cool thing is that in the arcane world of engine rebuilders keepers can be sourced from sources other than BMW and therefore cost cents rather than dollars.

A final comment on the topic off seats. If you do decide to have new seats put in and if you decide to avoid the cost of BMW lead free seats, you may be offered the choice of press-in or screw-in seats. Contrary to popular mythology, screw-in seats have no better in-service record of failure than pressed in seats - providing the machinist knows what they are doing. I watched the seats get put into my R100 heads recently - the machinist spent a long time on the mill setting up the desired level of interference and when the heads came out of the oven he pressed the seats in with a little 12 ton press. He does thousands of VW head each year and can count seat failures in the last few decades on the fingers of one hand.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:58:31 PM by Justin B. »
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2019, 03:47:16 AM »
Quote

The only other breakdown I've had with my R65 was the timing chain separating at 184,000 km, it'd been changed previously I presume once before, as the max recommended replacement interval is 80K km.  I was a bit slack on that one.  Once again, no harm done to the engine but was only taking off from lights, not doing 100km/h... I don't want to alarm you unnecessarily but if the distance on your odo is over a multiple of 80,000km you may want to consider this.

Thanks tunnelrider, some really handy stuff there. That’s a looot of Kim’s on your R65! Incredible.

Timing chain on this thing is waaay too noisy for my liking. Gets noisier once it’s warmed up? Fine under tension but when you back off to idle, it rattles around...

The Speedometer works on this thing, but the odometer and trip meter don’t! It’s a bugga. Speedometers are really handy in this day and age!, (it didn’t really matter much once upon a time) but I can’t live without an odometer... It’s critical to maintenance and monitoring. I’ve got both clocks in the R45 cache, but the speedo has a different number on the face and no trip meter, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they have the same drive ratio. Or not.... It’ll be a suck it and see. It does have an odometer, so hopefully I’ll get those 2 functions. Fingers crossed.




Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike... Re Exhaust valves etc.
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2019, 05:03:02 AM »
Quote
My advice given the lack of knowledge regarding the history is to change valves more or less immediately - they are after all so much cheaper than an engine rebuild.
.

Hmm. Thanks for all that Tony. Again, a world of experience!

My journey so far has turned up some very knowledgeable BMW people! I think I posted somewhere that I ended up at Paul Rooney’s place a few weeks ago, and a more humble genius, I don’t think exists! A lovely bloke, and he did recommend a machine shop locally. He’s been big valving and double plugging BMW heads for years so that’s a good recommendation. He actually said a lot of the same things that you’ve been telling me, including K lining the valves.

He’s booked out for the next 2 years building Australian Safari winners (as well as restoring classic airheads) so he was happy to share his knowledge. Lovely bloke and I might try and get down there again in the next week or so to get some more bits.

I noticed one of his bikes for sale on Gumtree the other day. What a weapon! They rarely come up sale and if my balls drop this weekend, (sorry, Lottery reference) that thing is mine!

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/toowoomba/motorcycles/bmw-r80gs-hpn-paris-dakar-style-motorcycle/1210385802


I’m suss on the standard valve seats. That’s too many instances of failure for it to be ignored. Now that I know that the odometer isn’t working, I’ve got no idea of the mileage on this bike, so that means check everything! There was a post on the Aussie R65 Facebook page this week bout some guys bike dropping a valve on the way to work... When you know it’s a weak link. Fix it.

It’s been pissing rain here for weeks,(it’s Easter - it just rains here at Easter - welcome to Byron Bluesfest!) so ihevent been riding for a few days but I’m hoping for a clear break tomorrow. I’ve got a couple of little things to drop off to customers, so about 120klm round trip including 30klms of dirt through the rainforest. Hopefully, the weather will co-operate.


 


Offline tunnelrider

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2019, 05:20:49 AM »
Quote
I’ve got both clocks in the R45 cache, but the speedo has a different number on the face
I haven't had to look in to speedo's (touch something lucky), but I think if the different number you mention is a W... number, it will give different readings. Hopefully not, may as well try and see.

The rego history might give some insight to how many km the bike's done if you don't already know.

Quote
That said, if your seats are still serviceable I'd be inclined to "suck it and see" as replacing seats is not trivial and you may not need to - just monitor tappet clearances and if they do not sudden;y start closing up - golden.
Sage advice. 

Tony I hadn't heard OEM exhaust valves are likely to expire around 50K km, is it because they were the first ones used then they got better? Is dropping an exhaust valve more likely to happen in a hot climate like northern Aus? I also used Intervalve for new valves and replaced what I thought were the original valves but now reading your post, they must've been replaced before as well.  Would you replace your exhaust Intervalves at 50K km too?  I'm on about 25K.
'85 Black R65 / '74 GT185 / '83 Pantah 500 / '01 DRZ400 dirt only

Offline tunnelrider

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2019, 06:20:14 AM »
Quote
I noticed one of his bikes for sale on Gumtree the other day. What a weapon! They rarely come up sale
Weapon alright. He makes a lovely job of it. Look at the clearance! So many good touches.   
'85 Black R65 / '74 GT185 / '83 Pantah 500 / '01 DRZ400 dirt only

Offline ged in oz

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Re: I used to be a Rat Bike...
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2019, 06:09:25 PM »
Quote
Weapon alright. He makes a lovely job of it. Look at the clearance! So many good touches.   

I wasn’t much of a GS/PD style fan until I went down to Paul’s place... now I really want one! He’s been building them for years and exports them all over the planet. You’ll notice that the advertised bike still has its R65 tank on it!

Interestingly, he was originally a Ducati guy and even raced one of the first Pantah’s in Australia back in the late 70’s.

I should have included a link to his website. A really, really nice bloke as well.

https://rooneycycle.com/