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Author Topic: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?  (Read 5648 times)

alexznam357

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Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« on: September 04, 2010, 08:23:42 AM »
I've seen these before on the Web, but never a good shot of the engine until this one.

http://bringatrailer.com/2009/02/13/unrestored-40hp-driver-1960-bmw-700s/

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 09:28:07 AM »
When I lived in Esfahan, Iran in the late '70's, the Citroen 2CV was a common vehicle, it had an air cooled flat twin engine .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV#Engines

A little more unusual use for an aircooled boxer engine, was in Maytag washing machines in the first half of the 20th century, the model 72 engine .

http://www.maytagclub.com/page-37.htm

These washing machines don't have the twin, you get the general idea .

http://www.herculesengines.com/Maytag/Default.htm

« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:00:52 AM by Bob_Roller »
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Offline montmil

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 12:49:24 PM »
Don't forget the beautiful water-cooler boxer engines in some Subaru models. They can also be easily converted into outstanding aircraft powerplants.

Monte
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Altritter

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 06:07:44 PM »
Quote
Don't forget the beautiful water-cooler boxer engines in some Subaru models. They can also be easily converted into outstanding aircraft powerplants.
 

+1, Monte. At idle, our 2007 Outback even sounds a tiny bit similar to the bike, though the 4-cylinder configuration blurs the individual exhaust reports that are audible at idle with our boxer twins.

Also, don't forget the original VW Käfers were 4-cylinder airheads! The VW airhead also reputedly made a great aircraft engine, particularly for experimental homebuilts.

FWIW, the Beetles began the 1960s with 1200cc. fours, and ended with 1600, so there is a displacement similarity between this bike's engine and the Käfer's, particularly the earlier ones. The bike appears to have more power than VWs, at least until 1966, when the VW Type I went to 40 hp.

BMW was originally an aircraft engine manufacturer, as the story goes. Anyone know whether Dr. Porsche got any ideas from them when designing the VW? (I've never taken the trouble to do a side-by-side comparison of the two engines to see if there are close physical similarities (not counting the dissimilarity of the VW case being horizontal, parallel to the the cylinder jugs).)

Cheers,
JT

« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 06:13:47 PM by Altritter »

Offline montmil

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 08:56:52 PM »
Quote
Quote
Don't forget the beautiful water-cooler boxer engines in some Subaru models. They can also be easily converted into outstanding aircraft powerplants.
 
Also, don't forget the original VW Käfers were 4-cylinder airheads! The VW airhead also reputedly made a great aircraft engine, particularly for experimental homebuilts.

Indeed they do! I have built and flown two FAA licensed, Experimental Category aircraft powered by VW aero conversions which I built up from the bare crankcases. Reliable as... well, a BMW airhead.

Monte
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Motu

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 05:26:51 AM »
In the '70's I did a lot of work on a Toyota with a front mounted aircooled flat twin,it was badged as a Toyopet.It was impossible to get parts for it,and I had to make things like the exhaust headers.We couldn't get brake parts,and had to get the wheel cylinders sleeved to a standard size.Years later I see a big story on some Toyota anniversary where this first Toyota in New Zealand had been found and restored.They would of had to remake all the patch ups I had to do back in the day just to keep this car on the road when nobody wanted to know about it.

This is a picture of the engine.


fwphoto

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 03:53:09 PM »
Had a '67 Porche 912 with an air-cooled boxer engine. What a great car! Wish I still had it.

I also had the fastback version of the square-back VW (can't remember the year or model #) that was an air-cooled boxer.

Now I'm on my second Subaru wagon with a boxer, first was a 2000 Legacy GT Wagon & now I'm on a '09 Outback. Put over 250K on the '00.

I guess its about time I find a BMW Airhead!

Frank W.

Altritter

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2010, 08:32:15 AM »
Quote
I also had the fastback version of the square-back VW (can't remember the year or model #) that was an air-cooled boxer.
 

[Full-disclosure time: I had to run to the basement for my "VW Good Book" (John Muir's How to Keep your Volkswagen Alive, a Manual of Step by Step Procedures for the Compleat Idiot) to be certain.] Your Fastback was a Type III. Production (or at least, importation into USA) began with the 1968 model, I think, and ended in 1974.

FWIW, here are the early (pre-Rabbit/Golf) VW types and more-or-less synonymous names:

Type I: the Bug/Käfer/Sedan/Convertible. Body shell variations on the Type I pan/engine/drive train were Safari (aka the Thing) and Karmann Ghia.

Type II: the Van/Kombi/Station Wagon/Pickup/Bus/Camper/Double-Cap Pickup/Campmobile/Transporter, plus (per Muir) "certain blue words."

Type III: Fastback/Squareback/Notchback (2-door sedan with conventional roofline—never imported officially into USA, so rarely seen here)/Variant.

Type IV: "411-2" (2-dr sedan)/"411-4" (4-dr)/"4-door"/"wagon". My first spouse & I had one w/auto transmission in Germany in the mid-70s. IMO, it was heavy, underpowered, under-braked, and generally a pig to drive. The model died, unlamented, sometime in the mid-70s, I think. (We bought the 411 because my ex admitted to burning out her mother's Beetle's clutch while unsuccessfully learning to drive a 4-speed, and I wasn't about to have her learn on my BMW 2002tii.  ;D ) Back in the States, I bought her mother's Bug in 1978, before she and I split. Afterward, we became single again, her parents had her ask me if I'd sell it back to them.  ;) I had it restored in '94-95, and still enjoy it as a fair-weather ride when the bike isn't practical.

FWIW: Muir's book is a large (like the shop manual that it is), spiral-bound paperback, a hoot to read while learning a lot from it. Both the text and Muir's cartoon illustrations (no photos, here) range from amusing to ROTFL-capable. If anyone has an interest in vintage Bugs or simply appreciates weirdness in a technical book, I recommend buying it if you ever see a copy at a yard sale or used-book store. Near the back of the book is a timeline (by chassis number) of model changes and major mid-year parts changes. Beetles are like our R65s; they began life with identical engine and frame numbers, but engines die (like my original 1300), and sometimes (always in the case of the 1300) it's impossible to rebuild the engine because of punctured case or unavailability of parts. (The 1300 lasted only one year, at least in the States, so a 1966 VW with a real 1300 still in it is a true garage queen, probably impossible to restore to original specs.)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 08:33:54 AM by Altritter »

Offline marcmax

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 02:01:29 PM »
Don't forget the only boxer I can think of out of  Detroit, the Corvair. Six cylinders, air cooled and ranging from 95hp to 180hp.
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trolle

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 07:35:49 AM »
Quote
Also, don't forget the original VW Käfers were 4-cylinder airheads! The VW airhead also reputedly made a great aircraft engine, particularly for experimental homebuilts.  

Found outside the window of my office:



greetings from a sunny north
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 07:36:32 AM by trolle »

Altritter

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 01:57:36 AM »
Posted by marcmx:
<<Don't forget the only boxer I can think of out of  Detroit, the Corvair. Six cylinders, air cooled and ranging from 95hp to 180hp.>>

Scheisse, I totally forgot about the 'Vair Monza Spyder! Good catch, marcmax! This confession is especially troubling for me, for reasons below:

During summers in college, I worked for my uncle, who owned a Chevrolet-Cadillac franchise in Central Virginia. My job, particularly in the Service Department, permitted me to drive some of the better mass-produced cars of the period: several 63-66 Corvettes (pre-Stingray, developed by Zora Arkos-Duntov, a design/racing legend of mid-20th century), and 120 miles in a Jag XK-150. But my favorite? A 1964, 180 hp. supercharged (not a turbo) Corvair Monza Spyder convertible. Though it didn't have quite the top end of the 'Vette or the Jag (or the Studebaker Golden Hawk or Avanti, for that matter), the '64 Spyder was the quickest, most agile USA-manufactured car I've ever driven! (Chevrolet dumbed down the Spyder in '65, so there was only one great year. (]:o( ) It cornered like a demon, and was astonishingly exciting to drive in twisties, even on the horrible tires of the period.

Brief explaniation! The Corvair was horribly maligned by the Ralph Nader "Unsafe At Any Speed" scandal. Nader arguably had a case for the first (1960-62) models, for the 'Vair during those years could, if cornered hard, break loose its rear end and spin. (Not a good thing for a rear-engine car.) But then, the 'Vair had been conceived as a car for Granny to drive economically to the supermarket, so there was a question of the design envelope being torn by radical use. By the time Nader's book was published, Chevrolet already had redesigned the 'Vair's rear suspension & eliminated the problem. But no matter: The book was a sensation, then GM compromised its defense by allegedly invaded Nader's privacy rights. GM further compounded the problem by not vigorously defending the Corvair in the legal proceedings. To make matters even worse, the dealers' service department mechanics hated working on Corvairs, and (I suspect) therefore didn't do a great job on them. (I suspect this was because they hadn't been trained adequately on what was at the time a radically different engine from those that American technicians were accustomed to seeing.) Result: Corvairs had problems from (1) oil leaks (valve cover seals) and (2) inner cylinders overheating because of inadequate air flow. (Contemporary VW airhead mechanics had a similar problem with No. 3 cylinder tending to overheat; they solved this problem by setting looser tolerances when adjusting the valves of No. 3. But no one at GM would deign to acquire information by learning from a foreign competitor.)

Result: the Corvair died prematurely from the combination of horrible PR, lack of huevos among GM executives, and lack of commitment at dealer level.

FWIW, if I had the $$, at the top of my wish list of USA performance cars of the period would be:

1964 Studebaker Avanti (reputedly good for 140-160 mph off the showroom floor. (I believe #1, doubt #2.))
1950s Studebaker Hawk-small V8, very slow 0-60 (low torque), but would outrun any police from 60mph+
2004 Corvair Monza Spyder (closest thing to a Porsche produced in the USA in that era)

Special note about the Hawks: I think the Studebaker Hawks were the closest the USA manufacturers came to producing a European-style GT sedan. (They were 4-seat hardtops.) The Golden Hawk's small-block, supercharged V8 was almost as fast as the two-seater Avanti of the 1960s, and the lesser (carbureted) Hawks were not much slower. (At least in a straight line -- I won't vouch for braking and cornering of any US car of the period - except, perhaps, the '64 Monza Spyder's cornering.)

There are others on my list:

Performance:
1950s Hudson Hornet (dominated early NASCAR - prized by young males for another reason). Amazing car!
1963 Corvette SS (Only 50 produced, designed & engineered by Arkos-Duntov, strictly for sportscar racing).
1968 Camaro Z28 (Only the 1968(?) (first year of the option) was a true performance car. The next year, Chevrolet (in its infinite stupidity) dumbed down the performance of the Z28 to make it only slightly hotter than the top-line regular Camaro. The first-year Z28s were truly nasty; subsequent models were relative pussycats, though the trim packages proclaimed that they were still tigers.

Styling:
1955 Chevrolet Bel Air V8 hardtop or convertible (long rear deck)
1957 Ford Fairlane V8 2-door Hardtop (long rear deck). Looked great, and with proper(?) silencers, had a sound like nothing else.

Yikes

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 02:26:57 PM »
Ah yes the Corvair.  I recall Corvair engines being highly sought after by VW van owners to replace the standard 4 cylinder VW engine, which was the same one used in the Beetle.  And judging from my old '69 bus, it really needed it to give it minimally adequate performance.  

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 03:17:17 PM »
There was even a Ferrarri vehicle with a boxer engine, they called it a 180 degree V-12 ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Berlinetta_Boxer
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Rob Valdez 79 R65

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2010, 08:17:48 PM »
Quote
There was even a Ferrarri vehicle with a boxer engine, they called it a 180 degree V-12 ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Berlinetta_Boxer
Lame article!  It doesn't even show the engine!

here are some pictures:
http://www.coleccionables.com.ar/cars/ferarri1.htm
http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/16070/index.html?no_cache=1
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 08:24:23 PM by Rob_Valdez_79_R65 »

Altritter

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Re: Ever see a car with a Boxer engine?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 11:37:32 PM »
Quote
I recall Corvair engines being highly sought after by VW van owners to replace the standard 4 cylinder VW engine, which was the same one used in the Beetle.

I can see that -- the Corvair 6 would be preferable to the 4 in the van, even if the displacement was the same (it wasn't). Did the switch require a lot of modification?

By 1968 even the Beetles were running 1500 cc engines. I thought the VW vans and pickups had the 1600 by then, but I might be mistaken. (Because the 1300 engine in the 66 lasted only one year, owners put 1500s and 1600s into the 66s when their 1300s blew (parts for 1300w were impossible).) I have a 1600 from a van in my own 66 (by necessity). Much more torque than the smaller engine.

I wasn't around the vans very much, so I wasn't aware of the 'Vair engine's popularity as a drop-in. (Was tempted to buy a used VW Crew Cab (4-seater) pickup in the early nineties. The VW pickup was neat-all of the sides were hinged could be dropped down like tailgates, making the pickup a dream to load and unload (a total flatbed). I passed on the Crew Cab because of probable rust issues.

BTW, apparently a really simple drop-in was to put a Porsche 351 engine into a Beetle, resulting in disguised street screamer. One of my college friends claimed to have had one in high school (until his brother totaled it). I've heard that the switch didn't require any modification. Personally, I think I'd want to change clutch and pressure plate/flywheel while I was at it.

8