Battery life and starting question

[montmil]

Memory fades, notes don't.

When I fail to do all things on my Honey Do list, Wife calls me Mister Short Term Memory. Not so.

Now then, where did I put those notes? [smiley=embarassed.gif]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[raphski]

Back at it!

New battery off the charger with the charger reading full = 12.89

In bike with ignition on = 12.64

With starter button depressed = 9.70

With the starter button depressed it does not go click click click, just one click/thunk then nothing.

Negative wire removed from the terminal with mulimeter bridging negative terminal to negative ground cable and set to milliampere with ignition off = .02

Thanks!!

Raphael

[georgesgiralt]

OK, Now we are talking.
0.02 mA ignition off is correct. Very close to zero, so insulation is good and everything is cut off.
But your 9.7 V when trying to crank the engine is something we should investigate ! It means the starter motor is pumping all the juice the battery can give and more.
So now we know for certain that the starter is  somewhat at fault.
With battery unplugged, remove the front cover and the starter cover and check that the contacts are properly tight. If yes, remove the starter and clean it as per the instructions we discussed about a couple of days ago... Work for the week end ;-) I hope the weather is not fine to regret the non running bike.

[raphski]

Thanks you for the guidance and the super post with photos on starter rebuild. I have some work to do and look forward to further getting know this bike which is new to me and also the satisfaction of it running again soon. Luckily I live in New Mexico where it's almost always nice and I have all summer to ride.
I will let you know what I find and if questions arise.
Raphael

[georgesgiralt]

My bet is that the brushes are worn out and that the solenoid is very dirty.
So before dismantling get a set of new brushes (a lot of cars of European origin used BOSCH starter motors, so you can/may find brushes there... )

[raphski]

Good evening,

This afternoon I had a chance to pull the starter. Based on the challenge of loosening the fasteners I'm guessing it has not been serviced in a very long time and I'm a bit afraid of what I saw. It does not look good but I'm hoping that it looks worse than it is, I will attach a few photos.

This is my first bike which I purchased over the winter and also my fist foray into motorcycle mechanics so bare with me as this is all new.

I have my theory about  whats going on but the after viewing the photos I think those of you with more experience will be able to enlighten me. I just hope I get to spend the summer riding and not doing a rebuild. Also let me know if I should start a new thread as I think the topic has just changed.

Thanks!!!!  

Raphael

[Bob_Roller]

The starter probably has not been removed since it was installed at the factory .
You can clean up the teeth on the flywheel with a file, same goes for the starter teeth .
It has the look of the ' bendix ' is not moving the starter gear out far enough to engage the flywheel teeth .

[raphski]

Thanks!

I will then get busy with my first starter rebuild and clean up the teeth on both the starter gears and fly wheel. I was a bit worried by the fresh bits of metal visible in both photos. I agree that based on the chipping of the fly wheel and the starter gears it looks like it was not fully engaging. Although if that was the case I would expect to hear a nasty grinding which I did not.
Recently when I have depressed the starter it has been just one click/thunk. As this is all new to me do I have to be concerned with the chipped bits of missing metal from the starter gears, or do they have plenty of room to land without causing trouble? Also would I be well served to replace the gears of the starter motor or is it fine as is if I clean it up?
I hope my issues are no deeper than the starter motor. If so it will be a great first project to get to start to know my bike. Also a chance to clean it up in there, what a mess, grease, dirt, sunflower seeds, there was all sorts of stuff in there.
 
Raphael

[raphski]

This may be a silly question but since I don't know the answer and am learning about how bikes and my bike work here goes. Should I be able to move the fly wheel manually by pushing on the gear with a flat head in its current state, battery disconnected, starter removed, clutch pulled in?
I can't, I didn't try a lot of force because I don't want to do any damage.

Thanks!

R

[Tony Smith]

My bet is that the brushes are worn out and that the solenoid is very dirty.
So before dismantling get a set of new brushes (a lot of cars of European origin used BOSCH starter motors, so you can/may find brushes there... )

Guarantee VW fit - Bosch starter for Type 1, 12v engines (the 6V ones probably fit too, but to my surprise i do not ever recall rebuilding a 6V starter. I guess they were so cheap and i had a shelf full of them anyway, no need to bother....

As far as the "pull-in" solenoid goes, they are a cheap part, just buy a new one, the newer ones are much better sealed against the elements which combined with the protected place our starter rides in means that I reckon you will only ever replace 1.

[montmil]

This may be a silly question but since I don't know the answer and am learning about how bikes and my bike work here goes. Should I be able to move the fly wheel manually by pushing on the gear with a flat head in its current state, battery disconnected, starter removed, clutch pulled in?
I can't, I didn't try a lot of force because I don't want to do any damage.

Thanks!

R

If the spark plugs are still installed, you're up against the engine's compression so it's going to be tougher than pushing a rope uphill. Pull the plugs, put the bike in high gear and use the rear wheel to rotate the engine. I'm guessing you're planning to dress the flywheel teeth with a mill file?

The only silly question is the one not asked.

[georgesgiralt]

Raphael,
The starter teeth have a special profile to engage while the starter is turning. So do not focus too much on them.
If you are worried, once well cleaned, bring the "Bendix" to a place selling them and ask to compare with a new one. You'll see what amount of wear it has... And decide if you've to buy a new one or not.
The flywheel teeth have a tough life because the starter teeth are very hard and hit on them fast. But I've still to see a flywheel used beyond hope... It may make a grinding sound when cranking but will crank anyway.

[raphski]

Thanks for all the guidance! I feel lucky to have found this group and resource. I will pipe down for a bit now and follow up with a report and some photos when I have made progress.

R

[raphski]

I'm rebuilding the starter since I ordered the parts and for the experience as well as to know it's good going forward. See attached photo for the real problem, a clutch bolt worked itself loose which is what was inhibiting the fly wheel from turning.
Thank you all for your help and guidance as I get to know my bike.
Raphael

[montmil]

On a positive note, those splines appear to be in good condition.

As someone once said, "Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"