Battery life and starting question

[Barry]

... Gruber sells their AGM that will fit the R65

$31.09

I have to agree those generic AGM batteries are a steal.  As with everything else in the UK the $ price translates to £ so we pay 50-60% more but they are still a good buy. I'm over 2 years into a £32 generic battery and it performs like new so there is every expectation it will last 5 years.  I haven't the faintest idea why anyone would splash 3 times that price for an expensive AGM unless it's guaranteed to last 15 years.

[Bob_Roller]

I found another reason for hard starting a few years ago when I had a failing OEM red ignition coil .
A starter that is ' dry ', the lubricants have long since gone away, the starter was using too much power, that the ignition system had insufficient voltage to work properly .
There are ' oilite ' bearings at each end of the armature shaft, oilite bearings, are compressed metal powder and are soaked in oil .
The oil seeps out and lubricates the ends of the armature shaft .
After 30+ years they are dry and need more oil, replacement, if they are worn .
Also, the ' Bendix ' unit that moves the starter gear to contact the flywheel, needs lubrication as well .
There used to be a thread in the FAQ section about this procedure, don't know if it still is there .
The thread is there, but the link is no longer good .

[BPT]

Bob Roller  - I was looking for that how-to as well.  It was mentioned in a post a while back (maybe by you?).  In the FAQ there is a post about a complete starter teardown/rebuild but that was  the only one I saw.  It had a bad link but I was able to find the page.  Is that the one you are talking about?  Or is there one specifically about the lube points?

[Bob_Roller]

The link showed complete disassembly, cleaning and lubrication of the starter .
I'm at work now and can't access any videos online, but if you do a search for Bosch starter rebuild, I saw a few come up .

[BPT]

The one I found was from This Old Tractor.  EXTREMELY thorough write up on a complete rebuild. I was wondering if there was one just for lubrication.  Do you have to remove the starter and take it down pretty far just to lube?  I wasn't sure how far into it you needed to go for that.

[raphski]

Well I thought my battery woes where taken care of with cleaning the terminals and ground contact points. I have had the battery load tested twice and both times it tested fine. After cleaning the terminals I was out of town for 8 days and it fired right up. Then overnight it would not start. More than not start it won't even turn over, usually just one solid click/thunk like the starter wanting to turn it over but not being able to do so. This is with a fully charged battery. Today I checked for visual shorts, and bought a multi meter which I will have to learn how to use, I'm not a electrical guy but I think it's in my future. How can I trouble shoot and see where my problem is.
Thanks!!!
Raphael

[georgesgiralt]

Raphael,
First, put your multimeter in voltmeter mode. Then, use it to measure the voltage at the battery putting the black wire on minus and the red wire on positive.
You should have more than 12 V reading (what kind of battery it is ?)
Then turn the ignition key to the ON position. Is the voltage dropping ? How much ?
Try to crank the bike. Is the voltage dropping ? How much ?
Post above measurements and type of battery. We will comment on that and progress from here.

[raphski]

Thanks for the help!
I had the charger on it last night with the battery in the bike and hooked up. This morning it read as follows-
12.69 ignition off
11.96 ignition on
With the starter button depressed and no crank just the click/thunk followed after a few moments by some licking the reading fluctuated a bit but was around 6.0
I'm off to ride my simple bike, the one with fat tires and pedals and will check the thread later today.
Raphael

[georgesgiralt]

Hello Raphael,
You battery takes the charging. 12.7 V indicate you have a "liquid" (flooded) battery and that it arrives at 100 % charge. (if I'm wrong on the type of battery, please tell me).

The other figure is not good. It tells me that your battery has got to it's end of life. (a battery looses it's nominal capacity as it is used. At first it is 20 Ah, then it becomes a 15 Ah... and so on until it reaches 0 Ah).
It seems, given your figures above, that the battery has not enough capacity to supply the bike with ignition on, thus the voltage drops under 12V. With the ignition ON, you only power the ignition circuit, the tachometer and maybe the headlight if your bike has permanent light on. So the voltage should have stayed well above 12V, maybe 12.6 or even 12.7V.
Given that, it has not enough capacity to drive the starter motor which is a huge sucker. When you press the starter button you request your battery to give something around 300 A to the starter motor. This is a huge drain on the battery. So we expect that the voltage will drop to around 12V during the time the starter runs. Your battery drops to 6V ! half it's rated voltage ! So clearly, it collapse under the load and your starter motor has not enough juice to power it's internal relay (300 A is a huge current and need a huge relay to cope with).
If your battery is somewhat old you will have to replace it and go. If it is not, you will have to replace it and troubleshoot what has killed it on the bike. For peace of mind, after replacing the battery, we will check that everything's fine and  you will learn how to check using your new multimeter.
But replacing the battery is/may be the first step.
I do not know where you live, but one can find relatively cheap AGM batteries suitable for the R65 and requiring no maintenance. There is an permanent thread on the upper part of this sub forum about that.
Have a nice day, even if it started not so good....

[montmil]

I find it difficult to justify the rather high prices for AGM motorcycle batteries

Monte,................. Gruber sells their AGM that will fit the R65

Yes they do sell AGM batteries at great prices. I buy from them. However, they are not listed nor sold as "motorcycle batteries". It's the motorcycle and accessory dealers that jack up the prices when the AGM battery carton has graphics of a motorcycle and the box says, "Fits these motorcycles".

In my home office, there's a wall-mounted box that holds an AGM battery as a systems backup. Three years after installation, I received a message on my TV that said it was time to replaced the backup battery. "Press OK and we'll ship to you and bill your account." Nearly $45.00 it was!

A little research found the same battery selling online for 1/3 of what I got giged for...from Gruber.

[raphski]

Ok, thanks for all the help! I was not thinking battery because when I took it to the battery store to have it load tested they said it was fine and they are in the business of selling batteries. Regardless for peace of mind and to see if it solves my problem I will start there. By the way it it AGM. In this process I have come across a recent post of interest about lubricating the starter which I may tackle sooner than later to reduce draw and further get to know my bike.
Have a great day!
Raphael

[georgesgiralt]

So Raphael, maybe something is killing your battery on the bike. As you have to buy a new one, we should ensure the bike won't kill it this time, shall we ?

When you buy the new one, put it in slow charge before use.  And we will use this time to debug the bike.

Fast charge your old battery on the bike. When charged, connect the plus wire to it but not the minus one. Turn the bike ignition off and plug your multimeter in the ampere meter mode. Be sure to read the manual if you do not want to fry the meter... Select the biggest setting the meter has it should be in the ampere range (1 to 10 A is perfect, if the meter can only measure milliamperes (1/1000 A) it is not big enough and you can't perform this measurement. Tell us so and we will perform another way)
Plug one cable (the black or minus) to the minus pole of the battery and the other one (the positive or red one)  to the cable from the gearbox.

If everything is OK, you should read 0 A on your meter. If it is the case, select a lower sensitivity on the ammeter until you read something and put that figure here. If you do not have a clock, you "should" have zero all along. But nothing is perfect, especially on a 30 years old bike...

More to come when results came back   One thing at a time !

[raphski]

The new battery is in and it still is not turning over, just one click/thunk per depression of the starter button.
12.32 ignition off
12.17 ignition on
8.30 with starter button depressed
I'm happy to have a fresh battery so I can rule that out completely and know where I stand. I just ordered the Classic Boxer Charging Book so I can start to better understand the electrical system of my bike. In the interim I would appreciate any advise on where to look next in trouble shooting.
Thanks!
Raphael

[raphski]

Hi Georges,
Let me know if I'm not getting you name right.
I had missed your previous post but then saw it. I gave up my old battery as a core for recycling so just have the new one. If I understood your directions you where asking me to bridge the ground through the multi meter which I did with a reading of .020
Positive side connected to the bike
Negative disconnected
Meter from negative battery terminal through meter to ground cable of bike
Thanks!

t

[georgesgiralt]

Raphael,
The new battery NEEDS charging. An offload voltage of 12.32 V indicates less than 60% charge. (provided it is an AGM).
And I bet your bike has more than one problem so it is not abnormal for her not to start, given the situation.
Your ammeter reading is confusing. What are the units ? Amps or milliamps ? Does your bike have a clock ?
If you want to make progress in troubleshooting, you have to make one change at a time. and note what you do, measure, how and when. Memory fades, notes don't.