no juice to the spark plugs

[R65LS]

I ride the 1982 R65LS most every day, never a problem.  Always kept in my garage here in SoCal.  Always starts right up and runs just fine.

This morning I start it up just fine as normal.   10 seconds later, it stops running, just as if I'd turned off the key.  All lights are on as normal, starter spins the engine as normal, plenty of gas, but it won't start.  I roll it back into the garage.

Troubleshoot:  no spark at either spark plug !!

Suggestions Please !!  I have no idea what to look for.

Cheers,

Carl

[Bob_Roller]

First thing I would check, is the ignition coil .

If you have the original OEM black and gray coil, it may be your problem, it's a known issue with these bikes .

If that checks OK, then the ' bean can ' and ignition module are next in line for trouble shooting .

[Barry]

With ignition on check for +12 volts at terminal 15 on the ignition coil. If you read 12 volts that would rule out wiring or stop switch faults.

[R65LS]

Yes, original coil.

How do I check it ??  I know there's no juice exiting the coil to either spark plug, and I don't know what or how to do other checks.

There are 2 wires with spade connectors onto the coil.  I removed those wires and cleaned the connectors, but that didn't solve the problem.

Cheers,

Carl

[R65LS]

Barry,

will do !!  I'll go look for 12volts.  Thanks !!

Cheers,

Carl

[R65LS]

RESULTS

Barry,

I connected one VOM lead to Terminal 15, the other lead I grounded on the engine.  Turned on the ignition switch and read 12volts on the VOM.

Of interest, when I flicked the right-side handlebar "safety thumb switch" (adjacent to the starter button), when I flicked that switch from ON to OFF ...... I got a spark across each spark plug !!  Don't know if that is helpful.
 Â   (I have each plug out of it's hole, laying on the cylinder, with spark plug wire attached.  I can see the spark jump the gap).  

SO, now what ??

Cheers,

Carl

[Bob_Roller]

You need to check the ignition coil for resistance values for the primary side, which should be around 1.5 ohms that's the terminals on the coil that you checked for 12 volts, the wires need to be disconnected from the coil to check the coil primary circuit .

The secondary circuit of the coil, should have around 11-13,000 ohms .

You check this by putting the multimeter leads into the holes where the spark plug wires would go .

When you toggle the ' Kill' switch and get a spark, what color is it, a blue / white, or a red /  yellow / orange ??

Blue / white is a good spark, the red / yellow / orange is a weak spark .

Your experience is the same when my original coil failed, two blocks from home, ran fine, then just quit like you turned the key to the ' OFF ' position .

The secondary circuit of my coil was at 1500 ohms and had a reddish color spark .

If you need a replacement coil, DYNA ' brown ' coils are a common replacement .

Motorrad Electric is a great business to deal with, great products and helpful service if you have questions .

http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm

The $95 price includes an adapter mounting bracket .

I've got these coils on all my R65's .

[R65LS]

Bob,

The spark color at the spark plug seems blue/white ..... the spark seems good and hot, but I cannot really judge.

OK, THE TEST

Disconnected the wires to coil Terminal 1 & coil Terminal 15.

Primary side:  5.3 ohms.

Secondary side:  I couldn't get any Ohm reading at all.  I tried this and that, triple-checking my VOM.  No reading at all on the VOM.  That tells me a wire is broken in the secondary.

But that makes no sense to me, since as I recall the theory both internal coils have to be functioning to create the high voltage in the secondary.  A broken secondary (which I seem to have) wouldn't generate the voltage/spark I'm seeing at my spark plugs.

ANYWAY ..... sounds like a bad coil which needs replacing ??

Cheers,

Carl

[Barry]

Of interest, when I flicked the right-side handlebar "safety thumb switch" (adjacent to the starter button), when I flicked that switch from ON to OFF ...... I got a spark across each spark plug !!Don't know if that is helpful.
 (I have each plug out of it's hole, laying on the cylinder, with spark plug wire attached.I can see the spark jump the gap).

SO, now what ??
 

Carl,

If you are getting a spark from operation of the kill switch but not when cranking the engine that indicates the ignition circuit is not being interrupted to initiate the spark.  The later electronic ignition is not my area of expertise because I have points but logically I don't see what else it could be but a faulty hall effect sensor in the bean can.

[R65LS]

Barry,

that makes sense, and did you see my post directly above yours ??  I did a check on Ohms in the coil secondary circuit and got none, which to me indicates an open circuit in the secondary windings.
 Â    I have no idea if the coil will still function as it seems to be when I move the safety switch, with a high voltage jumping an apparent break in the secondary winding ??

SO, what is this bean can:  where does one find it, and is it simply a remove & replace item ??  This is all new territory for me.

Cheers,

Carl

[Barry]

... did you see my post directly above yours ??I did a check on Ohms in the coil secondary circuit and got none, which to me indicates an open circuit in the secondary windings.
I have no idea if the coil will still function as it seems to be when I move the safety switch, with a high voltage jumping an apparent break in the secondary winding ??  

You wouldn't normal get a spark if the coil secondary is completely open circuit but I suppose if the break was close to one end it might be possible that an induced voltage would jump the gap. If you are certain about the ohms reading being infinity then a new coil is needed. If it is just the coil though it still doesn't make sense that the kill switch creates a spark and cranking doesn't. You could understand a faulty coil not working under compression but cranking with plugs out ought to work the same as operating the kill switch.

I suppose there is the possibility that the coil going open circuit also damaged the hall sensor in the bean can. I still wouldn't move on to the bean can until you either get a definitive reading on the coil secondary or replace the coil.  

SO, what is this bean can:where does one find it, and is it simply a remove & replace item ??This is all new territory for me.

The bean can is the ignition trigger unit found under the front cover and it could just be replaced but they are fiercely expensive hence you want to be sure that's part of the problem. Where are you in the world ? some one local may be able to help with a substitute diagnosis and then if needed point you in the direction of a repair facility.

[R65LS]

Barry,

Thanks Much for the idea on the secondary open circuit and the kill switch.  I was thinking that such might be possible with perfect circumstances ..... electrics can be weird.

OK,  I am confident of the open circuit/infinity reading in the secondary, so replacing the coil sounds like the reasonable plan.
 Â   Bob had the exact problem as I did, so that adds more confidence level.

Cheers,

Carl

p.s.  I live about 8 miles north of Disneyland.  My favorite repair place is Brown Motor Works in Pomona, CA, they've done a couple of fixes for me in the past.

[Tony Smith]

RESULTS

Barry,


Of interest, when I flicked the right-side handlebar "safety thumb switch" (adjacent to the starter button), when I flicked that switch from ON to OFF ...... I got a spark across each spark plug !!  Don't know if that is helpful.

SO, now what ??

Well, getting a spark when you operate the kill switch proves that your coils are capable of producing spark and that your ignition control box, aka ignition amplifier, under the tank, is probably OK.

Sadly that means that the pointers are towards your beancan. But before you rush out and buy a reconditioned one, or before you start searching for Honeywell 2AV52 or Siemens HKZ101 hall effect devices there is one further step.

There is a lead going from the beancan to the Ignition amplifier and on that lead is the infamous 3 pin connector. This connector is usually very reliable is left alone, but according to snowbum if moisture gets in you can get almost invisible corrosion on the middle (signal) pin which will stop you dead.

Read his article on how to seperate and clean that connector, bearing in mind that if it is the old cheese coloured connector on the beancan side, merely breathing on it will probably cause it to disintegrate.

This is a long shot for you as your bike started normally and then stopped which sounds more like hall effect failure than a correctable corrosion problem, but I do wish you luck.


If it is the Hall effect device and you decide to fix it, you will likely not find a Honeywell 2AV52 anywhere except for those few suppliers that sell industrial stock and will not sell you less than 100 at a time. (If you do find someone who will supply single devices let me know and I'll buy a couple for stock) Many, many airhead, K-bike and oilhead owners have replaced the Honeywell device with a Siemens HKZ101 device.

Here is a link to one (that in my opinion is way too expensive),

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HKZ-101-Hall-Effect-Device-Re-introduced-/390821861708?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5afecc594c

if you do this repair there are numerous "how-to" documents on the web - one bit of advice I have is to not get caught up trying to find the correct blind rivets to mount the thing, unless you already have the tool and dolly needed and have experience in using them. The first couple I did for friends I used appropriately sized screws and two nuts lock-nutted. The most recent I simply used long shank "pop" rivets - both worked just fine.

There is a feeling out there that the Siemens device is not as robust as the Honeywell, I did look years ago and I seem to recall that the specs were near identical, but the Honeywell device does come with high-temp insulation on its wires and the Siemens does not, frankly I don't think it matters much other than to be sure that you make sure that the wires cannot get entangled with the rotating bits inside the beancan.

If you mount it with screws there is nothing to stop you also using molex connectors for the internal connections - buy two HKZ101s and put molex connectors on its wires, wrap it up and put it in your tool roll, if the one in use fails you can swap it out by the side of the road.

You will read that you can go to the auto wreckers and buy the correct Honeywell device from various VW / Volvo / Audi etc cars. Lots of luck with that, even finding a wrecker breaking cars form the 80s and 90 would be a feat now and you would still only end up with a 2AV52 the same age as yours that just failed.

[Tony Smith]

Here is a better price

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZD1900

[montmil]

The Bosch OEM black n' gray ignition coil, more often referred to as the Crack-O-Matic, has a well deserved bad reputation.

If you wish, remove the tank and inspect the coil. It may be better to remover the "Cracker" to better check for hairline cracks, often on the end of the coil but in rare instances, along the length. Note the barely visible circular-pattern cracks in the end. This off my '81 R65.



The Dyna "Brown" coil... sure looks orange to me... from Rick Jones at Motorrad Elektrik is a first class unit. No mods. Bolts right up. Adding the Dyna coil is a great opportunity to replace plug wires and install NGK soark plud caps.



That nasty, scabbed on wiring was from a PO's fairing install. Long since removed.

BTW, That run-kill switch is notorious for failing. Itty bitty spring and a tiny ball bearing work together to keep the engine dead... at the most inopportune times. Parts are NLA. I never use that Gubmint-mandated switch on any of my three Airheads.