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Author Topic: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK  (Read 2240 times)

Sunbeem

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Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« on: July 24, 2008, 12:53:12 PM »
In the early seventies, I was a lowly aircraft mechanic, working on the airborne radar systems of the Avro Vulcan.
There was an awareness that by the time we heard about a new piece of technology, it would be five years old.
If we saw it, you could bet it was ten years old.
If the guy on the street knew about it – then it had been around at least twenty years.

Now I’m the guy on the street again, but I have tried to retain this awareness, and to factor it in where relevant.
And I often wonder what have they got now?
From this perspective I view the oncoming compulsory identity card with some interest.
The chip within could be surprisingly capable.

For financial transactions, I have a debit card, (for the things I CAN afford), and a credit card (for the things……………. !)
I am used to having information added to, and accessed from,
the chips in these cards.
When this is done, the card goes into a machine- but what if it
could be done a little more remotely with the ID card? Perhaps by something  I walked past in the street. Or by satellite. Or by a cop.

These cards would be able to store all our phone calls, our geographical position at any time, they could scan our bank accounts, and activate the microphone in our mobile phone. Huge amounts of information which would perhaps overwhelm any attempt to store it centrally, would be carried conveniently by the
appropriate citizen.
The commercial value of our purchasing history would be of interest to anyone who wanted to sell us something.

But who would want to do a sneaky thing like that ?

Sunbeem.

balibeemer

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2008, 06:44:12 AM »
Don't worry, the good old UK civil servants will lose any information that your mummy state can harvest!

bananapanties

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2008, 11:52:48 PM »
Heh.  Feelin' yer pain here.  In California, they passed a law a few years ago requiring that ID be carried at all times.  Anyone not presenting legal ID on demand to a law enforcement officer is subject to arrest.

Big brother strikes again.  People are so freakin' afraid here that they're signing their rights away for good credit and a decent health insurance policy.

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 05:56:12 PM »
Well, at least things haven't gotten as bad as in (not-so)Great Britain, where they have ID cards, AND millions of cameras to watch all their citizens, and the government has removed many other rights/liberties from the citizens that we still enjoy here.   I feel sorry for those folks.  And I hope it doesn't happen here, or I'll have to leave.
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larstorders

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 05:21:41 AM »
GB, currently has a government of intellectual midgets. I dont rant on about them anymore cos they're not worth the wasted breath. However, the sudden dissapearance of previously undreamed of supplies of easy money to our treasury and soaring national debt is bringing all projects in the UK to a dead stop. We can hope the expensive introduction of further legislation that will trivialise our regard for the law are now beyond justification.

Altritter

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 10:39:07 AM »
Sunbeem posted: << From this perspective I view the oncoming compulsory identity card with some interest.
The chip within could be surprisingly capable.  >>

Indeed!

Remarkable coincidence! I intended to post a question yesterday to our UK colleagues about this phenomenon, but I ran out of time. Having read this, I'm glad I was delayed.

First the question, then the context:

Are any of our members in the UK aware of a television drama mini-series (five 90-minute episodes) produced in the UK (probably one of the independents rather than the Beeb), and presently being telecast by the Public Broadcasting System (PBS) in the USA under the title, "The Last Enemy"? Episode 1 premiered on PBS here last Sunday evening; subsequent episodes will run weekly through the week ending November 9. (That's the week of the national elections in the US. Is PBS is making a subtle statement with its programming? ;) ) Because the independent affiliate of PBS that purchases the rights to show these British dramas sometimes changes the titles for US distribution, I'll have to make my point with a synopsis of the plot setup.

The Last Enemy concerns the development of "Total Information Awareness" (TIA), a (purportedly) somewhat futuristic integrated network of every surveillance and information-gathering medium and device in the UK and linked to a compulsory national identity card. (This kind of scheme is highly relevant in the US, because congressional outrage recently (about 3 years ago, I think) prompted the Pentagon to cease a program to developa rudimentary form of domestic TIA that actually had the same name and purpose as the fictional (?) British scenario.)  In the aftermath of the London station bombings (summarized in the plot in the singular as the Victoria Station bombing), British intelligence develops TIA so as to give the government a real-time surveillance capability (both real-time observation and archival storage) of every person's whereabouts and activities at any given moment. When the drama begins, TIA is well under way, but not yet complete.

The plot driver is a British mathematician who returns home to London, after four years self-imposed isolation in China, to attend the funeral of his brother, a relief worker in refugee camps on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border who reportedly died when his vehicle hit a land mine. The mathematician immediately becomes a person of great interest to the unknown agencies within the intelligence community, and learns in the process that much has changed during his absence.

In addition to the usual action-drama content, there's some thoughtful stuff going on in this script. One of the subplots is the inefficiency of the human portion of the surveillance system caused by compartmentalization of information within the intelligence apparatus. More than one intelligence entity is interested in the mathematician. Each entity knows *about* the other's interest, but none knows *who* is interested, or why. Complicating things further is the presence of a wild-card agent whose whose identity is known to British intelligence, but not his affiliation or purpose. It's entertaining to anyone who appreciates dark humor. (Orwell would have approved.)

Why does the trend toward universal surveillance bother me? Two general principles: (1) Any technology developed by a government *will*, sooner or later, be used; and (2) any abuse of that technology that has the effect of making the job of the person using it easier, or relieving the boredom of constant surveillance, will occur.

Two reported examples of these principles come to mind, one in the UK and one in the USA:

1.)  Two or three years ago the NY Times (I think, I didn't make a record) ran an article about security screeners in the UK secretly distributing photographs of females being searched and joking among themselves about the physical attributes of a person being screened (presumably from behind one-way glass or while viewing a closed-circuit monitor at a remote location).

2.)  This past week there was another report of the disclosure that the National Security Agency, which is permitted to monitor overseas calls and calls to and from the United States involving foreign nationals, has been routinely listening to, and recording, personal calls to and from the United States between US citizens assigned overseas and other US citizens at home. Additionally, the report stated instances where the intelligence operators monitoring the calls shared (via email, presumably) the index locations of the records of intimate conversations, adding descriptive notes such as "Wow, this is hot!"

nhmaf posted: << Well, at least things haven't gotten as bad as in (not-so)Great Britain, where they have ID cards >>

Sorry, but I'm not so certain of that, *particularly* if the federal "Real ID" requirement for a uniform driver's license format is not repealed after the election. If Real ID is fully implemented, the US *will* have a national identification card, but published (and paid for) by each state, the District of Columbia, and all other US territories, etc., that issue driver's licenses. BTW, the big fight is about money; the states claim they don't have the *many* $millions necessary to implement this scheme.

Altritter

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 10:59:54 AM »
[This is Part 2 of my rant regarding "The Last Enemy." I "charactered out" in my wordiness. in Sorry, but this topic pushes some serious buttons of mine involving the United States Constitution]

BTW, if anyone is interested in "The Last Enemy," our members here can check their local PBS station for it under the series "Masterpiece Contemporary." (FYI, "Masterpiece Theatre" has split into several sub-series, e.g., "Masterpiece Mystery," "Masterpiece History," and "Masterpiece Contemporary." (There might be more categories. Confusing!) If you find it, and if your local station is *not* repeating episodes (and it's too late in my area to view Episode 1 via conventional means), all is not lost. See below.

For any interested readers outside our borders and our domestic members with no possibility of watching a repeated showing, there's another possibility. If your internet connection permits streaming video, or even if you can download video, go to the PBS web site, www.pbs.org. Search around until you find "Masterpiece," then go to "Contemporary." Find "The Last Enemy," then look for the "view" or "view online" option. Episode 1 is available now in bite-size chapters (5 to about 16 minutes each). (The pun was unintentional but appropriate.) Episode 2 will be available tomorrow (11 October), and each subsequent episode will be available beginning the Monday after its initial broadcast date. All five episodes will remain available on the PBS site until 9 November.

OK, I'll step off my second soapbox of the morning.

Thanks for indulging me,
John


Offline nhmaf

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 02:27:43 PM »
Our state (NH) rejected the Real-ID requirement as invasive of personal privacy as well as on monetary grounds.   The rejection means that we will also lose some federal $$ for our transportation projects, etc. but this state is still largely "Live Free or Die" (our state motto).   There is a reason that the
Libertarian party is trying to send a few more thousand members to NH as part of their "free state" project.  There are some of them who seem to be a bit off the deep end IMHO, but  many of us prefer smaller government, with a shorter reach, and are unwilling to become sheeple in exchange for some
mummy-state induced false sense of security.    Ron Paul was pretty well liked up here, but everyone here knew that the odds were more than astronomically against him, and so his voter turnout was not very high, though his conferences were well attended.
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Offline steve hawkins

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2008, 07:37:54 AM »
I watch the last enemy - the whole series when it was on here(uk).  Very disturbing.

However, keeping track of 65 million people in real time takes alot of computing power.  And using that info with cross checking etc, would horrendous.  Just look at the trouble the Govenrment(NHS) are having just putting our medical records on to computer.....its some way off.

Also monitoring using camera's is a tedious and not a well paid business for the operators.  A camera system is only as good as its operators - and if he/she is low paid, then it is likely he/she will not be well motivated or skilled.
Its a wonder they know how to switch them on in the morning.

Anyway the criminals have nothing to fear even if they are caught - the prisons are full.  They can clear their backlog, i.e put their hands up to some of the other crimes they did earlier - and be back on the street in no time.  Police are happy as they can clear up a load of unsolved crimes and claim that they are doing a great job.  The courts have thier hands tied.

The only thing we do have is that is still very unlikley to have a gun pulled on you - unlikley, but not impossible.  A knife in the chest is more likely, or having your head stamped on by a gang of youths.

I would still rather be here though, than risk having some jumped up, gun toting cop with a hard on - shouting at me because I was walking on the cracks in the pavement - or looking at him in a funny way.....17 years in the RAF, regularly handling weapons has taken the gloss off for me.

Cheers

Steve H
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Offline Lucky_Lou

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 02:31:16 PM »
I watched this thought provoking drama and found the concepts very possible the only problem is that any technology is only as good as those using it.I flew from liverpool to killarny only to find when i got to my hotel i had a load of 9mm blanks in my jacket pocket which had been through the scanner. Needless to say they didnt make the journey home god only knows what the armed muppet would have done after he had finished making me take my shoes and belt off.
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Danie

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2008, 01:29:41 PM »
We are in desperate need of more cameras in our country - anyone who would like to find out why, could have a look at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1924251.stm

Altritter

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2008, 09:48:07 AM »
From Lucky_Lou: << However, keeping track of 65 million people in real time takes alot of computing power. >>

True, and I don't think we're quite there in the States, *yet.* However, if our government wants to learn how to do it, they will undoubtedly check out the integrated networks that our insurance and financial-services empires have developed. Or, perhaps even better, put some of the more proficient spammers and computer malware vectors on government contract. ("It takes a thief . . ..")

This raises the corollary potential nightmare here in the US of our government trying to circumvent the US Constitution by hiring contractors to do the nasty stuff and then raising the defense that there was no state action involved, or even if there was, the contractor (or its employees) exceeded the scope of their authority. (Even if ultimately unsuccessful, this tactic makes criminal prosecution or civil litigation more complicated, and therefore less likely to succeed.) I suspect that aside from the enormous profit potential for insider corporations, this was a hidden motive for the huge number of armed US private contractors in certain parts of the world.

<< any technology is only as good as those using it. >>

So true, in terms of both mental capacity and motive.

This touches on a disturbing trend here in the US: the accelerating militarization of police departments and their tactics at all levels of our government. This has been facilitated by both our federal government (with offers of surplus military weapons and equipment) and promoted by a very active Police-Industrial Complex profiting from the trend. Even the styles and colors of the uniforms stimulate some very unpleasant historical images.

The trappings have helped to create a storm-trooper culture in certain police departments in our area. In one widely-publicized incident in my area recently, a county police SWAT team allegedly broke into the home of a town mayor, shot the family's two pet Labradors, zip-tied family members to chairs in plain sight of one of the dead dogs, searched the home, and interrogated the mayor and perhaps one or more other family members for several hours about a package left on their front porch (apparently as a "drug drop" via an express company for an unknown person to take from the porch). The police department's internal investigation concluded that the cops had not used excessive force and had not otherwise done anything wrong.   >:(
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 09:48:59 AM by Altritter »

larstorders

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Re: Compulsory ID Cards   (Y)UK
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2008, 01:20:41 PM »
That is truly shocking Altritter. The police behaved worse than most criminals, it sounds like.
It's tragic, we seem to be moving ever faster toward police states both in UK and US. Personally I believe the naivity and gullability of our populations are mostly to blame. We the population are no longer able to control or choose appropriately our governments.
It seems the government in the UK is one of the greatest threats to both, our own safety and people in other countries.  Our government is grievously unqualified for their growing powers.
 Me, I'm learning to go my own sweet way now and enjoy life where I can. I reccomend it.