Oil dripping from shelf at back of tranny 11/01/06

[msbuck]

SueCanada Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Oil dripping from shelf at back of tranny.  
      
This topic has been covered many times in our old forum. I am not sure but isn't this oil leak coming off the shelf at the back of the tranny where the engine mounting goes through the big sleeve often associated with a bad rear main seal and the O-ring seal you guys often discuss? How much oil is too much? Or is this something that I shouldn't be too worried about? Like some oil is normal for an older bike.

The job of replacing a rear main seal sounded like a BIGGY but do-able if one is methodical. Rob V. is always warning us to make sure "something" is supported or horrible things can happen.

I have a winter ahead of me here and wondering if I should think about getting all the seals replaced by me or my mechanic. I suppose it means I have to remove the entire engine???
_________________
SueCanada
1983 R65LS- Little Red Baron
2005 F650GS- "Cary"
       
BobRoller Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:01 am
  
Sue, yes that's the usual result of a leaking main seal or oil pump cover seal, I guess it depends on how bad it's leaking, if it leaves a puddle under the bike and oil is getting on the rear tire, it's time to do something about it. I guess it depends on how you feel about it. It's not going to get better or go away. Replacing the rear main seal isn't alot more work than removing the transmission for a spline lube. Once the trans is out of the way, you remove 6 bolts that secure the clutch assembly, and before you go any farther, block the front of the crankshaft, usually a piece of allen key inserted into the alternator bolt head, and put the front cover back on . Then remove the 5 bolts that hold the flywheel to the crankshaft, remove the flywheel, and you have access to the rear main seal and the oil pump cover, no need to remove the engine. You will need a few speciality tools to do the job, I would say no more than $75US. The last time I did my main seal, I didn't use any speciality tools and I had no problems doing the job, it can be done but if things don't go well for you it may take more time.
              
airhead Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:23 pm
  
Oil can also leak from the tranny main shaft seal. Does it smell like engine oil, or have a slightly bitter smell of gear oil? Is it dripping on the floor after a ride and a pool on the tray, or is there just a greasy mess on the engine tray and only an occasional drop? Could also most likely be the pump cover loose or O ring needing replacing.
Up to you Sue, mechanically can't really hurt anything (except for an oil pump leak as it can drop oil pressure, and can only get worse) as oil can't easily make it to the clutch plates, though if a gearbox seal can can get to the clutch. Make sure the breather hole on the gearbox is clear so pressures can't build up. It's located in the earth/speedo bolt on the back of the box. For the engine, make sure the breather valve (reed valve) is working correctly and the vent tubes are clear. Both these things can cause the seals to pass, but return to normal if rectified.
The crank blocking is to prevent the thrust washer falling off its locating pins on the rear main journal. The crank moving forward can be enough to make this happen and is only found out when the flywheel is replaced and the engine refuses to turn. That means the washer is now mashed and requires the crank to come out to replace it. Easier to take the precautions up front.
Bill........................
_________________
1976 R90/6
1986 R65 Mono
       
msbuck Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:34 am  
 
Wow. I've had this weepy little mess as well. My bike sat for 8 years without being ridden, so I expected some weeping around any rubber seals. Mine isn't enough to drip on the ground, so I've left it alone for many years with no change. I need to look at my push rod seals as well. . .

I just want to ride! You're not supposed to have to work on BMWs - just get on and ride!
 
_________________
Aïda

1984 BMW R65 Black
1998 Laverda Ghost Strike Yellow
              

[msbuck]

Semper Gumby Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Rear main seal.

Hi Sue,

+1 on checking the breather.

Else: Could be either main seal or Oil pump o-ring. When you pull the flywheel off the back of the engine the crank has to "supported" by having pressure applied in an aft direction. The engines are built vertically with the front of the engine "up". This keeps the crankshaft holding the seals and a certain slip ring held against the aft bearing. Since you can't turn an engine vertical when it is in the bike, the crank has to be supported. There are a couple of ways to do this but the easiest one (I heard on THIS phorum) is to:

1) Disconnect the negative terminal.
2) Remove the front engine cover.
3) Take an allen socket (3/8" drive) pull out the allen part and insert in the end of the crank shaft by the alternator (8mm allen?).
4) Put the front cover back on the bike and snug it down against the allen not real tight (don't want to bend or break the cover.)

The crank shaft is now supported and will not move forward and you can remove the flywheel without losing the slip ring off the back of the crank shaft (This would require a complete teardown of the engine to find the errant slip ring Embarassed ).

I have the tools for this procedure due to Casual Tool Acquisition Syndrome and as I will probably have to do this on my bike some time in the future. Do a lot of reading and let me know when you are ready. You can borrow mine for the price of shipping the stuff to the great white north. Or you can buy the stuff from Ed Korn. He has everything! http://cycleworks.net/

Tools:
1) [3] - 8mm Long clutch removal bolts plus nuts.
2) Flywheel locking bar.
3) Rear main seal installation plate.
4) Clutch alignment tool.
_________________
Bill Gould '80 R65
              
wiemer  Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:39 pm    

Sue,

When I bought my bike there was oil " on the shelf" as you said. A small puddle.

But I had VERY bad pistons and bad heads. 153.000 kms on it.
The wear could easily be heared, and measured. Low on compression, huge oil consumption, blue fumes.
That means that a lot of pressure went into the crankcase, and blew oil out past the seal.

Now I have good pistons & redone heads and all remains dry!

What I mean is that, if your heads and cyls are OK, the reason are the seals themselves, but in the other case...
I dont know how old your bike really is. (miles-wise then)
You have the Nikasyl cylinders, and they can last much longer than the iron sleeved ones I had.

Rob Roller says that "if it leaves a puddle under the bike and oil is getting on the rear tire, it's time to do something about it" Or a tad more early.

I agree with that. Replace when it bothers YOU. Very Happy Very Happy
And when the clutch has to be replaced sometime, it is a good idea to look at those main seal and oil pump seal too.

wiemer.
              
suecanada Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:57 pm    

Sniff, sniff...that's me checking the odor of the dripping oil to see if it is gear oil or engine oil. The reed style breather?? I know where the other hole is but not this. Is it the crankcase breather under the starter motor cover? How do I check if it is stuck?

Ya see...I know just enough to get into trouble! The carb bowls still have a drip on the bottom on the left side..this mean the crankcase breather is working?? never did put a copper scrubbing curly in there.

There is quite a difference in smells for the two oils. Ill let you know what I sniff out.
_________________
SueCanada
1983 R65LS- Little Red Baron
2005 F650GS- "Cary"
              
wiemer Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:30 pm

In my bike there is a black hose coming from next to the starter motor, ending in the right intake plastic tube. When cranking over I can feel it blow. (neved did thouhg) Shocked
Makes the funny noise when I shut off the engine.
So if you remove the air filter, also in your bike it should be visible.
And the reed valve itself should be at the beginning of the vent pipe, under the starter motor cover, which I gain when I unscrew 2 bolts.

Wiemer.
             
suecanada Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:08 pm

To the best of my sniffing ability I would say that the oil at the back of the tranny and on the shelf is GEAR oil not engine oil. I think that replacing the crush washer at the engine oil drain plug has lessened the drip of engine oil significantly. So what is slowly, slowly migrating down is gear oil and it is very slow..but then again it is 0 deg. F. Rolling Eyes (Used tin snips to remove old crush washer..they are hard to get off!!)

I may check that breather under the starter cover...did anyone conclude that if one gets a drip on the left card bowl it proves that the crankcase breather is "breathing" Which may be interpreted as working OK?
_________________
SueCanada
1983 R65LS- Little Red Baron
2005 F650GS- "Cary"

[msbuck]

wiemer Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:39 am  

So your oil dripping problem is solved by a 50 cent washer? I hope so too.

My breather ends in the right carb ait intake. but I have an older engine. Look in your book where your has to end.
But I have no drips at my float bowls!
Keep your fuel taps closed!

wiemer
              
justinbowser Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:51 am

Wiemer, the later model ones have a "tee" and a hose goes to both sides. Sort of an "equal opportunity" oil dribbler!  
_________________
Justin B.
1995 R100RT
1984 R65 (Barbi's)
1982 R65LS
1981 R100RT - Nekkid!!!!
1980 R65 "RS"
              
suecanada  Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:14 am

Petcock is always turned off as part of my shut down procedure..just part of the, automatic by me, steps I take.

Question: What is your opinion about fFIRST hitting the killswitch to stop the engine then the ignition key? There seems to be different opinions about this based on the robustness of killswitch vs. ignition switch.

I wish all problems could be solved with 50 cent solutions, eh??? At 85,000 miles LRB will need care and watching over as he grows older. A bit of oil at least keeps the corrosion away! Doing the paper towel test under the bike for monitoring any drips. Seems that I at least got the new oil filter in successfully with Very, Very minor weep. This weep seems to go away after things settle in I have found.

Gas tank is off, emptied and aired now and a wee coat of oil swizzled inside. It goes up in my bedroom for winter sleep after a good polish. Boy, is there ever a lot of gas that sits in that tank after initial draining through top and petcock. Need to remove entire petcock to get every last drop. Then blew a vaccum cleaner hose into the tank to speed up airing out. Why do I do this??? I like to look at it over the dull winter months.

Funny and dumb move by me: When I was draining LRB's gas tank I was taking the gas and dumping it into Derek's van's gas tank......when all the time the F650GS sat there 2 feet away NEEDING a full gas tank for winter storage!! I guess I'm not in the swing of things yet with another bike which sits all winter with a full tank and stabilizer!
_________________
SueCanada
1983 R65LS- Little Red Baron
2005 F650GS- "Cary"
       
Semper Gumby Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Engine Kill Switch       

suecanada wrote:
Question: What is your opinion about FIRST hitting the killswitch to stop the engine then the ignition key? There seems to be different opinions about this based on the robustness of killswitch vs. ignition switch.

Hi Sue,

I use my kill switch when I get stuck at traffic lights. Saves gas around town.
_________________
Bill Gould '80 R65
              
RobValdez1979R65 Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 am

Sue,

If it smells like tranny oil, that may be what it is.

The good news?

You have already pulled the tranny once. It will be MUCH easier this time, and it is even fresh in your mind!
_________________
Rob V

Guest (suecanada) Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:11 pm    

 :-/ :-/ Oh, right Rob! So if it is tranny gear oil...what am I fixing?

[msbuck]

suecanada Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:37 am  

It's me, suecanada ,on that last post! I just read our chit chat about spam infiltrating under "guest". I didn't login last night so that's why last post by me was as a guest.
_________________
SueCanada
1983 R65LS- Little Red Baron
2005 F650GS- "Cary"
              
justinbowser Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:23 pm  

It could be the neutral switch or the input shaft seal...
_________________
Justin B.
1995 R100RT
1984 R65 (Barbi's)
1982 R65LS
1981 R100RT - Nekkid!!!!
1980 R65 "RS"
              
suecanada Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:35 pm

Thanks..that helps narrow it down with something I at least have heard about. Took out the F650GS today..maybe this week will be the last. Was actually 60 deg.F. here...last Friday and Sat. it snowed 10 inches!! What a weird time of year.
_________________
SueCanada
1983 R65LS- Little Red Baron
2005 F650GS- "Cary"