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Author Topic: electric's mystery....  (Read 3772 times)

milkman

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electric's mystery....
« on: October 30, 2007, 03:52:34 AM »
Evening all
I'm chasing a gremlin in my LS's system, hoping you can help me out.

Short story: I was riding it loaded up, down to Phillip Island for teh MotoGP, 1100 km each way.
I had a complete service done the week before by my regular trusted mechanic, carbs balanced, engine toruqued, plugs, fluids, tyres etc tec

Bike was running smooth as, and even loaded, was pulling better through the top end than ever before.
I was humming along at 110km/h when the right cylinder dropped out.
I stopped, checked the plugs, and feul etc, all fine. I got the cyclinder back when I started the bike, but from here in, get it over 40km, and then the right side, then teh left would die out.

I got towed to the nearest town, and of course, the issue wouldn't show itself. I put new cap plugs on to be sure, and a mechanic who looked at it claimed he adjsuted my timing, tickled the foat bowls and I was on my way.

I did another 1600 km, with the only evidence being a massive flat spot between 3300-4000rpm. It would fire normally again once I accellerated past this flat spot.

When I returned, a timing light showed the right cylinder to be out of whack. It loked for all money as if the old coil was going, so I installed a new one ($260), and still no love.

The bike has deteriorated now, to the point that once over 3000 rpm, the bike is coughing on both sides, as if I was trying to fire it on dirty fuel, and can't get past it.

I checked teh float bowls, no untoward signs. I'm buggered if I can work it out. Maybe my pick ups are buggered?

I know this is a ramble, and hard to diagnose over the web, but if anyone has run into something similar, I appreciate any advice. I don't believe its a feulling issue, as the bike was still deliver fine between 0-3300 revs, and 4200-upwards

Thanks again for assistance, and reading my rambling plea for help.

Offline Justin B.

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 06:51:07 AM »
Maybe give the carb diaphragms a good luck and check to make sure your ignition is advancing smoothly.  You should have the "Z" mark come up in the timing windows at about 3500 RPM.
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

airhead

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2007, 06:56:31 AM »
Well well Milkman, you're fast finding that shotgunning a fault can be mighty expensive!!
Sounds more like carb problems from here, maybe the diaphragms, how long since they've had a rebuild? Check the filters in the fuel tank, make sure they're not blocked.
Not sure how you diagnosed a coil fault with a timing light, and what do you mean by the pick ups? If you mean the Hall trigger for the ignition, it will generally stop altogether, or when hot.
Apart from that, how was the GP? Been to Phillip Island a few times in the past, but not on a sickle. I work at Munich Motorcycles part time and was jealous as it seemed everyone around Oz was phoning and ordering parts, prepping their Beemers prior to their run to the GP.

Bill.................;-)

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 01:48:13 PM »
Milkman

You described the problem of effecting one cylinder, then effecting the other cylinder at a later time.

I don't know how well versed you are on these bikes, but the ignition system installed, is what is referred to as the wasted spark system.

Both sparkplugs fire at the same time, so if one cylinder is effected, and not the other, it would be an ignition lead or plug. You have eliminated both of those.

The only other things that both cylinders have in common are : air intake and fuel problems.

Not trying to second guess you , but are you sure it has effected both cylinders at different times ?

When I hit reserve on the highway, I myself can't tell which cylinder is starving for fuel just by sound or 'feel', but I know the left carb has the shortest fuel line, so it will be effected first.

As Justin and airhead mentioned in their posts, I would remove the carb tops and see what you find in the way of condition of the rubber diaphragm.

After 17 years of ownership, the diaphragm on my right carb tore, and the problem ( bogging down ,  large hesitation, uneven running) only happened when I opened the throttle for merging onto a highway, or quickly opening the throttle.

If your carbs have not had the rubber parts replaced, this may be a good time to do it. ( Including the 'much feared' throttle shaft o-rings !)

 Bing recommends that the 'needle jet' be replaced at about 25,000 miles (40,000 km), as it takes a lot of abuse from the needle.

May I suggest that you acquire some shop manuals for your bike, and before you spend a fair amount of money on a 'hopeful' fix, post here, or on some other forum that is knowledgeable on these bikes.

This might take the 'sting' out of your purchase of the ignition coil, if the coil that you removed from the bike was grey and black, you probably did yourself a favor with replacing it, as this coil has the reputation for cracking and failure. Just hopeful that the replacement OEM coil that you installed was red and black in color.

 But even these upgraded replacement OEM coils are not the greatest, mine only lasted 10 years and started to give problems.

It was mentioned by either Justin, or airhead, about cleaning the screen on the fuel tap inside the tank. I can't speak about any other bike but my own, and it does not have any screen, metal or other wise on the pick-up tubes in the tank. Only filter I have from the factory, is the plastic one that threads into the fuel line fitting at the outlet of the fuel tap.

If nothing obvious is found with the carbs, airhead made a post, oh maybe 6 months ago on testing the electronic ignition control module that resides under the fuel tank. Maybe he can post that procedure  ( Bill if you can, why don't you post this procedure in the Technical/ FAQ section) as I remember, it was a pretty quick non-complicated procedure. While were on the subject of the control module, remove it clean it off and apply some di-electric grease to the surface between the module and the finned heatsink. It can overheat if it can't get rid of excess heat to the heatsink, and it starts causing odd ignition problems, that go away when it cools down.

I saw in your profile, that you reside in Sydney, I don't know if corrosion is a problem in your area, but from what I have seen on living on a salt water coast, that corrosion can develop on electrical connections that are not water tight.

You may want to spend some 'quality time' with your bike, and disconnect every electrical connector, and check for the presence of corrosion by-products, white, green or rust colored ( this would include all of the frame ground points, usually a bunch of solid brown colored wires secured with one bolt or screw) and clean as necessary , apply a small amount of di-electric grease to act as a seal. Corrosion and loose electrical connections can give quite frustrating intermittent electrical problems.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 02:27:35 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline nhmaf

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 10:42:33 PM »
Well, it is rare, but it could also possibly be a hall sensor/bean can ignition trigger that is flaking out.
But, I'd check out the carbs first !
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

milkman

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2007, 12:57:46 AM »
Thanks all.
I'm taking all these pieces of advice into consideration, and will be implementing them when I can.

Let me be clearer if I can:
I do have a manual. The bike isn't wet. Fuel is gettin gthrough my filter and down teh fuel lines fine.

First time this incident occured it was DEFINITELY the right cyclinder dropping out first.
I tested both sides for spark, and the right seemed weak compared to the left (this was done on the side of the freeway)
I changed the plug caps.

When the fuel on a tank was getting close to reserve the next day, it was the right side going first, in one instance, it cut out again, while I was able to continue on teh left cylinder. I changed the fuel tap to reserve, and teh right side eventually spluttered back in (the left side hadn't cut out at all)
I have changed the plugs (again)

I haven't done the leads.

Moisture isn't a problem, as I did 1100kms in the rain, no deterioration, and have since spent the rest of my time riding in sunny conditions.


My bike mechanic is an honest bloke and teh shop to go to for old euro's in Sydney. He services jsut about every Moto Guzzi in NSW and his business is fixing the European bikes most shops don't look at now. As his shop is always full of airheads, guzzi's, old dukes, laverda and brit iron.

He lent me his test unit today for the CDI (wasn't it) and the "pick ups". What I'm calling the pick ups is the unit behind the timing cover that is driven by the camshaft (please correct me if I'm wrong). I am trying this tomorrow.

As for diagnosing the coil with a timing light, what I meant was, by all the symptoms of the problem, the age of the bike etc and with fuel seeming to be adequate, it seemed for all money the coil was going out. When we used a timing light on the bike on the right cylinder, from 3500 up, there was almost no light being produced, and it was erratic at best.
Since changing the coil, and re-examiing with a light, there is a much brighter, and consistent result from the timing light. The old coil was black and I'm not sorry to have replaced it regardless.

Today after again checking the float bowls, and blowing out the main jets, the bike did seem to run better for a while, with just a small flat spot between 3400-4000rpm. The problem eventually came back to manifest it self again though, somtimes kicking in at 2000rpm, someties later. This gives me the impression that something is periodically causing blockages maybe.

I haven't replaced rubbers in my carbs, and at 130k on my bike, I don't know when this was last done, so it may be the next task worth looking at. After I try the pick ups, I'll let you know.

It definitely seemed mre of an electrical issue though, as originally it was only within the fintie period in the rev range.
The biggest "problem" with this issue is, its intermittent nature. You can't be sure if you've fixed it or not!!!

So clear as mud?
Thanks for you advice so far folks.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 01:00:58 AM by milkman »

milkman

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2007, 01:04:51 AM »
By the way, today, when it was playing up I had an odd occurence.

While sitting at the lights, and winding the throttle off, the rpm stayed elevated at 3000rpm, before gradulaly working down. Next set of traffic lights the bike again rose to 300rpm.

It was as if I had highly elevated idol from the bike being tuned cold, but now having heated up. However teh bike was hardly running long, and teh next two sets of traffic lights, the idol sat calmly at around 1200 rpm (i had only gone another 2 blocks, so it wasn't as though it cooled down at all)

Another oddity at the moment.....I'm over diagnosing every little noise now!

Offline Justin B.

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2007, 04:40:52 AM »
Your high idle is a classic symptom of the mechanical advance mechanism sticking...
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Lowen

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 09:06:29 PM »
Start with the cheap test first. Open the gas cap and see if the bike runs better, if so you have a clogged vent in the cap.

dewjantim

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2007, 10:20:27 AM »
My rpm goes up like that when my bike warms up. If I crimp the tubes going to the carb from the emissions system it returns to normal........Dew.

milkman

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 01:49:27 AM »
Ok, I've been through the carbs on both sides. Nothing sinister

Confusing. Sometimes its dong it at idle, sometimes hot, sometimes cold, sometimes never.

Going to try a new coil off another bike, because for all money its looking like a coil. Just in case my new bosch coil, wasn't so flash in the first place.

thrang

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 01:29:46 PM »
Off the wall sugestion here, examinined the inlets from carb to heads?

Also whats the conition of your ignition unit?  Not long after I got the Bimbo it had an ellecy gremlin that was traced to the ignition overheating because a PO had not used the heatsink compund stuff when fitting it. Itsnlikely sure but worth a look.

good luck, and if all else fails have a beer!
Tony


milkman

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2007, 01:09:12 PM »
Thanks for the advice peole.

Here's the update: I'm back on the road, but there is still a small gremlin.

The carbs were completely pulled apart and all jets cleaned and re-cleaned again. All major electrical components were swapped with known working models and re-tested. New plugs, leads, caps, coil.
The only obvious "fault" to be found was some crimped wires, that were re-aligned, solderd straight, heat shrinked plastic re-applied.

The bike is once again rideable HOWEVER it is running as it should on start up UNTIL it warms up, then a flat spot/coughing emerges again, between 3500-4000 rpm.  
I rode the bike like this for 2000km previoulsy, until one day sypmtoms became worse and erratic throughout the rev range.

So now it definitley seems like something is getting hot and effecting it, as it fedinitely runs fine when just started, and on a cool run into work, the problem didn't arise.

Any ideas?


Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2007, 01:12:51 PM »
By chance did you remove the finned heatsink from the ignition control module under the tank, clean and apply a di-electric grease to the mating surface between the two parts ?
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

milkman

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Re: electric's mystery....
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2007, 02:22:31 PM »
No, i didn't.

I'm not exactly clear on which part you are reffering to.

I didn't pull anything off the actual ignition module myself, not sure if the mechanic did, but I'll ask him.

Thanks again. I thingk we're getting closer.

Rode in to work at 5am again, and the cooler morning didn't present a problem.