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Author Topic: Unleaded  (Read 2912 times)

Offline AJB

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Unleaded
« on: June 09, 2016, 04:17:50 PM »
I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times before, but nothing relevant came up when I searched for it - perhaps I'm doing something wrong?

Anyhoo, what is the official line on using unleaded fuel in the R65?  Is it OK after a certain production date?  Do we need to use some kind of additive?  Or should I stop worrying and just ride the thing?
1982 R65LS | 1999 R1100S

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2016, 06:13:17 PM »
The problem with this one is "your mileage may vary".  BMW had a couple of attempts at making heads that were guaranteed to live with unleaded, they made some mis-steps.

In very broad terms, if your head was made 1985 on it probably has the last iteration valve seats and is OK.

If your head was made 1981 update (big valves) to 1984 it might be OK - use additive to be sure.

If your head was made 1979 to 1980 (pre-update small valves) you should use additive.


Some people may notice that I have changed my tune a little, I used to say "suck it and see" and suggest that on a lottery basis some heads were OK and others not.

I've had my attitude adjusted by reading some studies on internal combustion engines generally and the effect of the change to unleaded on them. The really interesting thing was that for the first 10 years after some countries switched to unleaded some old engines had problems but the majority did not and initially nobody could fathom a reason for it.

It was the result of a number of variables:-

Firstly many engines turn out to need vastly less lead for valve seat protection than leaded fuel actually contained.

Secondly, the "new" unleaded fuel was transported, stored and delivered over the same infrastructure that had in some cases been used for decades for leaded fuel.

It turns out that the lead deposited on the "infrastructure" was slowly dissolved into the unleaded fuel and that minute amount of lead was just about enough in a lot of cases to protect valve seats, particularly during the transition period when the same infrastructure could have leaded fuel in it one day and unleaded the next.

This "masking" effect accounts for the very, very long time it has taken for the true effects of the transition to unleaded fuel to be seen, it also accounts for the undeniable fact that some engines had trouble whilst others did not.

Your choices are pretty simple, based on the depth of your pocket, the laws of your country and you comfort with breaching them and how "lucky" you are.

The headline choice is of course that at next top end rebuild have "unleaded" seats fitted - not a cheap process - the machinist will first run a bead of weld around the existing seat and see if they can drive it out. If they can, and the valve seat bore remains within spec, they will then drive the new seat in and then after renewing the valve guide will cut the seat and fit a new valve.
 
But if the valve seat bore is out of spec, or the machine shop has to "dig out" the seat, they will then have to weld up the head and machine a new seat bore, drive in the seat and then do the rest of the work - not cheap!
 
Option No.2 is to add the law compliant additive of your choice in the proportion required by the manufacturer. It is worth while to do research as whilst some additives have science behind them, others are mere snake oil.

Option No.3, if your country still supplied leaded fuel for piston engine aircraft then buy a 20lt drum of that and add some of it to your tank of fuel. In Australia we have diminishing availability of 100LL Avgas which stand for 100 octane, Low Lead. The Low Lead part is a laugh as 100LL has 4 times as much lead in it as leaded fuel ever did here. If you use 100LL in your R65 the ends fo the pipes will have a really nice white coating on them after 100km on the highway, that coating is pure, unburnt lead. Anyway, the people who claim to know such stuff say that 250ml of 100LL into 20lt of unleaded fuel every 2nd or 3rd tankful will maintain protection of the exhaust valve seats. The is the minor drawback that doing this is utterly illegal, not only from the standpoint of emissions but also from the standpoint that you have not paid the correct duty/excise on the Avgas. A matter for you and your conscience.

Option No.4, with due deference to those of the Catholic faith, I term "the rhythm method". using this method you check your valve clearances regularly and if you notice them suddenly start to close up, you have a change of faith and adopt one of options 1 through 3. If you are lucky and have adjustment left, your might avoid option No.1.
 
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that we simply do not know what POs of our heads have done to them. In my case I have a set of small valve heads that have been heavily ported and flowed and have had large valves fitted. I suspect that lead free seats were fitted, but there is absolutely no way for me to know - I use additive.

The Wife's R65/80 used to have 1987 heads on it - they were fine on unleaded. Sadly they had to be destroyed to recover the stainless steel headers, I do not know what year model the heads now fitted came from (I could find out but have not bothered), she now uses additive. I am layign in a stock of R65/80/100 heads as and when availability and finances permit, they will all have unleaded seats fitted and will be used next time.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2016, 08:39:42 PM »
It *may* help avoid or extend things to some extent, but as Tony said, there was a particular set of seats in the early 80s that were especially poor at conducting heat that even adding copious amounts of lead will not save.   The R65 bikes have a bit of a mixed blessing as far as that goes - their smaller cylinders don't generate as much heat energy as the larger R80/R100 cylinders do (especially the R100) so in some sense they are a bit less susceptible to valve plastic deformation (this is generally what happens rather than physical valve seat recession on these).  But on the other hand, the valve stems are smaller (7mm vs 8mm) and one could argue that less metal mass in the valves combined with generally higher RPMs at typical road speeds could counteract the advantages of less heat energy to deform the valves as the valves have less metal and still can't sink heat through the heat resistant valve seats.  YMMV.

I may put some lead additive in my 1982 R65 (original heads) a couple times per year, but I don't do it every tank, or even once a month.   So far, no problems, but eventually at some point, any of the pre-1985 heads will need work.   It is just good practice to monitor your valve lash and get used to the "sewing machine sounds" of a happy ticking BMW airhead.   If the sound changes or your experience performance or starting problems, look first to the valve lash to see if things are rapidly closing upand plan accordingly.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Barry

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2016, 03:24:04 AM »
My simplistic understanding is this:

78-80 seats shouldn't experience the plastic valve deformation issue because they have good heat transfer but are subject to recession due to the absence of lead causing micro welding.

81-84 seats shouldn't experience recession but poor heat transfer does cause plastic valve deformation.

In both cases there is one factor I think worth taking into account.  The micro welding that causes valve recession and the poor heat transfer of the 81 - 84 seats that causes plastic valve deformation are heat related.  As has been pointed out they are possibly less of an issue on a smaller capacity engine but the effects must be engine load related too. So if you ride with sustained high revs then the effects should be more pronounced  and either seat replacement of additives should be taken seriously.

To put it another way if you use moderate revs then the effects may not be apparent and your seats may be fine for a long time even without additives. This is what I've found.  Using Tony's "Rythm method" I have never noticed any valve recession that's measurable.


Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline AJB

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2016, 03:40:36 AM »
Ok, so mine is a Feb '82 build so my gut feeling is to use an additive and check the tappets regularly.  I won't be doing a lot of miles so hopefully this will keep things sweet for the foreseeable future.  If things go t!ts up and I have to do a rebuild then ensure I use hardened valve seats or later heads.

2 more questions:
1) Which additives do fellow R65 riders recommend - that are hopefully available in the UK!
2) Are 1985 R65 heads interchangeable with earlier models?

I guess I also need to read up on doing the tappets - it's got to be the same as an aircooled VW, right?  ;D
1982 R65LS | 1999 R1100S

thrang

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2016, 04:03:24 AM »
My advice is if you're in doubt about your valve seats and the bikes pre-monoshock since it wont do it any harm, give it a gulp of replacement every tank or two just in case.  I used to run a fuel lead replacement brocket from Motobins in the tank before I restored mine, but I don't know if they are still available. Redex lead additive is probably the easiest as its readily available in most petrol stations.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:06:19 AM by thrang »

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2016, 06:32:31 AM »
Quote
2) Are 1985 R65 heads interchangeable with earlier models?

I guess I also need to read up on doing the tappets - it's got to be the same as an aircooled VW, right?  ;D


Ok to answer your two questions. Yes all R65 heads from beginning to end of time will interchange. There are compression differences resulting from different deck height (if you scout around you will find a post from me long ago where I locked a Pre 1981 piston to a post 1981 piston by the simple expedient of removing the rings from one of them and then placing them together the difference is minor and I in fact run the early pistons.

Post 1985  (or was it 1987?) there are more minor changes in the squish band in the head, from what I've read this is of no moment, the pistons will not interfere and the compression is not excessive, if you are worried use pre 1981 pistons.

The post 1985 heads also have the highly desirable late rocker gear. If you buy the heads bare and don't get the rocker gear you can fit the earlier rocker gear but will need to "press" (this is the polite term for bash them with a hammer and a piece of wood for a dolly if you do not own a workshop press) the earlier model steel "buttons" on which the early rocker gear rides.

Just to give the converse view, if you luck upon a set of late model rockers, they will fit the early heads, you just have to "press" (see above for translation of this term) the buttons int he heads out and have a good selection of the various sized shims available - and goodbye tickey-tickey.....

To answer your second question, the BMW clearances are easier to set because the BMW has superior adjusters, but the principle is the same - if you can set tappets on a VW, the BMW will be a doddle. If I may make a suggestion, various sellers have two different coloured feeler gauges in .10 and .20 size, buy the as they are much easier to use than an entire set of gauges.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Barry

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2016, 06:56:05 AM »
Quote
Ok, so mine is a Feb '82 build so my gut feeling is to use an additive and check the tappets regularly.  I won't be doing a lot of miles so hopefully this will keep things sweet for the foreseeable future.  If things go t!ts up and I have to do a rebuild then ensure I use hardened valve seats or later heads.

2 more questions:
1) Which additives do fellow R65 riders recommend - that are hopefully available in the UK!
2) Are 1985 R65 heads interchangeable with earlier models?

I guess I also need to read up on doing the tappets - it's got to be the same as an aircooled VW, right?  ;D


I stand to be corrected here but I don't see how an additive can help an 82 model as the new seat material BMW introduced cured the problem of valve recession caused by micro welding in the absence of lead but also introduced the problem of overheat exhaust valve which resulted in plastic deformation. Lead substitute additives help with valve recession caused by micro welding but I don't see how they could help with plastic valve deformation.

What will help is anything that keeps the exhaust valve cool so avoid excessively high revs, lean mixtures and dump any emissions kit although a Euro model shouldn't have it anyway.

Not sure whether 85 on heads would fit. Can't see why not but they will be thin on the ground.

Doing the tappets is very straightforward and yes similar to VW
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 06:57:00 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2016, 10:54:32 PM »
My 11/81 built R65 has had no issue with valve recession.
But it could have already been updated
I have shimmed the old style  rocker end play using these shims
I installed them at the bottom end of the shaft.
I have about 15000 miles on them with no issues
http://www.mcmaster.com/#98126a171/=12susas
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 11:07:48 PM by Mrclubike »
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

motoboy66

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2016, 10:11:41 AM »
Quote
My 11/81 built R65 has had no issue with valve recession.
But it could have already been updated



And thats part of the trick on a 35 year old machine with god knows how many owners. Unless they were all meticulous with paperwork and receipts it's hard to know what work has been carried out.

Unless the updated valves look significantly different? Could anyone verify that?

Offline Barry

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2016, 11:45:38 AM »
To quote Snowbum

"The new valve seat material introduced in 1980 by BMW was a SS, high nickel-chrome alloy. NOTE that this seat material can be identified by a SINGLE scribed line on the inside.  The later 1985+ PROPER material valve seats have TWO scribed lines."

Snowbum doesn't describe how to find the lines and they are not what you might think. They are concentric lines forming a circle on the inner surface of the seat.  

« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 11:51:46 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2016, 01:04:35 AM »
Hello !
Here in France, Airheads had and have a high mileage on them.
The general consensus is that lead additives is at best useless at worst bad.
I do not know if the actual composition of fuel has a role to play on this. France has it's proper giant petrol company and owns quite all of the refineries. So the composition of fuels is quite constant and as specified by Total.
My R65 I bought new. It is around 200 000 km (changed odo somewhere). The local Guru says that you'd better change the valves before they snap. He says 60 000 km is the safe limit if you use your bike a lot and use the full range of RPM. And he advice to do a valve job before 100 000 km. My last valve job was done at 120 000 km and I was lucky because I had a spring breaking just before the valve snapped. So I went for repair just days BEFORE I broke the engine....
I look at the valve lash very often (I do a valve check at every 5000 km) and I began to see closing on the exhaust since the last two checks. The valves have around 80 000 km on them, so the local guru seems to be right  :D
As per the seat change, here in France we have a lot of horror stories with seats going out and blocking the engine to it's death. I  inquired a lot of Airhead specialist around France and the very vast majority of them (all but one) told me not to change the seats UNLESS they are so worn out it is mandatory. And they advised to dig the very top of the line of the engineer.... ans ask for a warranty on the job. One of them is a former Gendarmerie (police) mechanics and he as seen a very large lot of abused police motorcycles from the force. So I'm tempted to follow it's advice.
If I where you, I would check the valves and the seats and ask the most competent engineer available about the seats. What ever option you choose it is of utmost importance you put BMW sourced valves with their special collets to allow them to spin. Every body in France, even those selling non OEM valves, said so so I tend to think there is something to follow here.
The above writing is the result of my recent search on this subject because my heads are due to renew... So  :)

motoboy66

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Re: Unleaded
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 09:40:53 AM »
Ah barry, that looks good! Shame there isn't a way to know without getting the head off.. or maybe if you are clever with an inspection camera..