79 R65 Bosch starter rebuild or replacment?

[raphski]

Hi,

I'm going to start a new thread for this since I have moved from battery/electrical on to starter rebuild to trouble shoot and get her running again. Thanks for all of your guidance thus far!

Today I had a chance to take the starter apart.  To my inexperienced eye, (this is the first starter I have ever removed and disassembled) so I have no point of reference I'm not sure it is rebuild-able, I will attach photos.
I'm thinking something caused the filed coil in the starter motor housing to get too hot, at least that crossed my mind. In addition it appears there is unhealthy wear on the lower flange of the armature, I can't even figure out what would have caused it as the brushes seem to sit correctly in their holders. On the bright side I thought the starter gears were chipped but upon closer inspection and cleaning I realized they are not. I look forward to some wisdom from those of you with starter experience.

If indeed this starter is toast should I find a OEM replacement or is there a better aftermarket alternative? Also if it is toast what would have caused it to fail in this way?

Thanks!

Raphael

[georgesgiralt]

Your starter looks pristine to me. Put in new set of brushes, clean it very well,open the solenoid to check on the master switch (where the two big wires attach at the rear) and Bob's your uncle.
The "drops" you see on the inductor wiring is the liquid insulation they put at the factory. I've bobs like these on my starter.

[raphski]

Thanks!

Although I think I have found a deeper problem and perhaps the cause of all this.

It was suggested that I clean up the starter gear damage on the fly wheel. By removing the plugs, placing it in a high gear and rolling it to turn the flywheel so I can clean it up with a file. There is no rolling it in gear. With the plugs out I can't get the fly wheel to budge, not even a bit?

Now what?

I really appreciate the support and guidance. Although I'm getting deep enough into the unknown as a new motorcyclist and motorcycle mechanic that the next step may be to load it in the back of my truck for a visit with the specialist.



  

[nhmaf]

Plugs out and the gearbox in 2nd or 3rd gear it shouldn't be difficult to roll the bike and watch the flywheel spin.
It this with the starter motor still removed?

Occasionally, the "nose" of the starter (where the 9 tooth gear that engages the flywheel) can break or be damaged if the bendix doesn't disengage when the engine fires up - usually from accumulation of dried up grease and dust in the gear/shaft assembly.   Your nose gear appears used and slightly worn, but from what I can tell, not in a "replace me now" state.

The Bosch starters are heavy, and suck the most current to startup the engine, but they are rebuildable an pretty robust.   Valeo makes starters for the later model airheads which can also work in your bike.  These are a little light in weight and draw less starting current.  They had a period of time where some would drop magnets (bad adhesive) and lockup the starter, but this has long since been resolved.   They don't sell rebuild parts for them though.  They can be a little cheaper.
Then, you also have the Nippendenso starters - which you can buy from Rick at Motorrad Elektrik:
http://www.motoelekt.com/starter.htm
These are more money, but they are starters from Toyota trucks and have excellent reputation and are basically a drop in replacement.

So, you've got options!

[mrclubike]

Pull the front cover off and see if you turn the motor over with  a hex wrench in the rotor mounting bolt
That motor should turn over with little torque (without the Plugs in)
If not you need  to figure out why it is locked up

[montmil]

Now that does sound odd. As folks say, it should not be difficult to turn the flywheel. As it was rotating before you removed the starter, makes me wonder if something isn't now jamming the flywheel. ?

It may become necessary to pull the gearbox as a last resort.
 [smiley=wall.gif]

[georgesgiralt]

Humm,
This will explain why the starter produced only a click, pumped all the juice the battery can give and still not move the flywheel a bit.
The picture you gave us of the starter internal are too good to cause all the fuss. So they may be something else.
Try to find why you can't rotate the engine with the plugs off.
Try to move the rear wheel with the gearbox in neutral. If you can, this will show that the gearbox is not seized solid somewhat. Then put the 3 or 4th gear and repeat with the clutch depressed. If you still can turn the wheel and gearbox gears then the problem lies either in the clutch or engine.
Whe you have done these tests, report, please.

[montmil]

Are we having fun yet, Raphael?

Between you, your bike and the folks on this forum, you can and will sort out whatever's ailing your R65. Don't let this issue discourage you. Consider it as earning an advanced degree in Airhead love.

Charlie Mike  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Bob_W]

Center stand and bump the rear wheel in gear with starter removed. It will get hard to turn when compressing the valve springs but then get easy in between.
Starter drive could be extended jamming against ring gear. Removing starter eliminates this.
By the way brushes are listed at Max for less than $15 and a rebuild kit-contents unknown- is around $50.00.
Did you do anything other than remove starter?
We know you can fix it.

Bob

[raphski]

Thanks for all the support!

I will get back to the board when I have news to report. I was wanting to earn my basic degree in Airhead and get to ride this spring, prior to going for my advanced degree.

I have not spent much more time on it but the flywheel does clearly appear to be frozen. I can spin the rear wheel when in neutral. If it's in gear no movement at all, also no movement by trying to turn it via the rotor mounting bolt, the plugs are out.

 :-?

[mrclubike]

I assume you tried manually turning the engine over  with the clutch lever  pulled in.
If so drop the drain plug on the engine and see what comes out
If it is free of metal flake then you can breath a little easier.

If you get to the point you are removing the tranny and then the fly wheel
Remember you have to block the crank from moving forward or the rear thrust bearing may fall out of place

[raphski]

Based on my lack of time and experience I decided to bring it to my local airhead specialist for diagnosis and repair. I will rebuild the starter and save my advanced degree for another time. Attached is a photo of the culprit.
Thanks again for all the advice and guidance. I will put up some photos when I get the bike back. I have a bunch of parts on the way to continue to get the bike back to the way it should be.
It was a clutch bolt that had worked its way loose.

[georgesgiralt]

Good !
While the tranny is out, change the input lip seal and if you can, the flywheel seal also. Take a look at the oil pump... Just my 2 cents here but, it would be raging to have a leak in a few month....

BTW, I checked the Bosch starter information. It needs a little more than 300 A ! Yes, 300, if you block it's shaft. No wonder the battery collapsed during startup try....

[raphski]

Will do, thanks!