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Author Topic: Rear wheel bearings  (Read 4323 times)

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2016, 02:49:51 AM »
Hello !
I made a take-up-collar to be able to pre-load the wheel bearing when doing wheel balance with a new tire.
I went the other way around this problem. I bought a plastic 19 mm tube and put at both ends the top hat spacers I replaced on the wheel because the lip seal has worn them out. This way the tube is centered on the axle and the ends are perfectly pressing on the top hat spacer on the wheel.
The 19 mm tube is a very cheap gray tube used (at least in France) to hold electric wires when doing apparent installation. I cut it using a miter saw so the ends are reasonably perpendicular to the axle.

As per the bearings, the old one I have in front of me are SKF 30203 J2/VT10B I suspect the J2 and VT10B are tolerance markings from the SKF company.  Some rollers are badly rusted and seized into their cage. Happily enough my wheel centering device has rollers of it's own so I could ascertain the true and wobble of the newly got wheel using them because the axle refused to make one full turn ....

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 05:51:48 PM »
Quote
Quote
What are the Timken numbers for the bearings.

The bearing number is 30203.  Very common and most likely found at your local auto parts store.


Thanks Mike and George  ;D
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 06:38:04 PM by Mrclubike »
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 02:07:18 AM »
So I went to the bearing seller in my town yesterday. 40 Euro less and a couple of Made in France Timken in my pocket.
This morning:
remove old SKF outer races
Install new Timken outer race
Check pre-load with the wedding band I have.
Decide if I need a new one or not....
Empty the R65 tank and try to fix the stumble problem I have for weeks now....
Try to work a bit  ;-)

Offline Barry

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 03:20:23 AM »
It's worth bearing in mind that even if the bearings are identical dimensions BMW were notorious for setting them up at the factory with excessive pre-load. In my case I found it was grossly excessive pre-load and I had to insert a shim which from recollection was 3 or 4 thou.

Like Monte I much admire Mike Valenti's precision approach to the measurement of bearing drag and it's a pity BMW were not as contentious. There was something else I learnt in setting up my bearings and that's the fact that unless you are extraordinarily lucky the interval between available sizes of wedding band is simply far too big.
Using Duane Ausherman's shake the wheel test I found I was easily able to detect half a thou difference in shimming while the wedding bands only came in 2 thou intervals. As I needed to reduce pre-load, rather than buy a thicker wedding band and lap it down I ended up making my own shims.
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 07:30:51 AM »
So,
I've changed bearings. First, removing them with the Northwood airhead tool was a song. Installing the new outer race in was also easy, using the enormous socket I own.
But, when I installed the axe and the plastic tubing I use to balance the wheel, i discovered that cheap plastic is not a proper material. When I used the torque wrench to set the pre-load, the plastic exploded !
So it took me some time to find a metallic tube (22 mm dia copper tubing from my plumbing supply) and make a spacing tube. copper is too soft. When I applied the torque, the top hat I use to center the tube on the axe sank into it...
But I was able to find that the preload was 20 Ncm so in between the 15~30 Ncm Bmw specifies... All is well !
I have to grease the two bearings, install the lip gaskets and top hats and I'll have a nex wheel ready !

Offline Mike V

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2016, 08:51:23 AM »
Quote
It's worth bearing in mind that even if the bearings are identical dimensions BMW were notorious for setting them up at the factory with excessive pre-load. In my case I found it was grossly excessive pre-load and I had to insert a shim which from recollection was 3 or 4 thou.

Like Monte I much admire Mike Valenti's precision approach to the measurement of bearing drag and it's a pity BMW were not as contentious. There was something else I learnt in setting up my bearings and that's the fact that unless you are extraordinarily lucky the interval between available sizes of wedding band is simply far too big.
Using Duane Ausherman's shake the wheel test I found I was easily able to detect half a thou difference in shimming while the wedding bands only came in 2 thou intervals. As I needed to reduce pre-load, rather than buy a thicker wedding band and lap it down I ended up making my own shims.

I'm in agreement again with most all points Barry - as usual.  I too find the factory preload of 21 to 42 inch ounces excessive.  In fact my target is much in the lighter range of 15 to 25 inch ounces. Leaning towards 15.

And I agree with your comment of the factory steps in wedding band sizes may not get you to where you want to go without milling, or shimming. 0.05mm can make you or break you if you're close to either side of the limits.

I no longer use Duane's shims (or others), just a personal preference for me.  Those 0.05mm shims are very easy to overlook and loose count of.  And if anyone other than myself ever get's into the stack they will surely overlook them. My recommendation if you choose to use the shims is to be sure and clearly document how many you've used in your personal records.

The well known /2 shake test is a good final test after installation but I wouldn't advise using it for adjustment alone on the newer wheels.

Just as a clarifier, as I expected - a lot of you feel I go over and beyond for this process. Most of my posts reflect my experience with testing which I was very critical of, in the way of parts, fitment and procedure. I want to share the details I've learned for the sake of completeness and safety. Most of our wheels have the steel hub inserts which make this procedure much less complicated.  My testing was for the all aluminum drum brake snowflake hubs on my R100/7 for which the R&R and preload is much more involved.  Shortcuts are fine, just be sure to be careful in what you do for your own safety. 
Mike V. / San Diego
'78 R100/7 (original owner)
'81 R65 (fully restored)

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2016, 09:22:11 AM »
Hello guys,
I've discovered a problem. The left lip seal has to be inserted INTO the hub otherwise the top hat spacer will not touch the bearing and the slip seal...
I bet the dealer sold me a wrong reference for this top hat spacer ...
What do you think ? May I have the seal a little buried in the hub or has it to be flush with the hub ?
Mike, measuring the torque using a scale and a thread is not at all difficult nor overkill. I was lucky to find a couple of years ago a digital scale you can use to weight you luggage in airport. This served well today ! As I'm also anal, I used the exact value for g to make the calculations from kg indicated on the scale to N needed in the Ncm figure given by Mr BMW ... I am in the lower value and can't turn the axe by hand now that the new seals are in place  8-)

Offline Barry

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 10:01:39 AM »
Mike,

Having just re-read my post, I didn't mean to say I wished BMW were as contentious as you I meant as conscientious as you.  Hope that didn't cause any offence. I'll plead spell checker.



Georges,

I'm not quite clear on what the problem is with the top hat spacer.  Before installing the seal it's normal to push the top hat through from the back of the seal. To do it after seal installation is possible but risks damage to seal surface.
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Mike V

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 10:45:21 AM »
Quote
Mike,

Having just re-read my post, I didn't mean to say I wished BMW were as contentious as you I meant as conscientious as you.  Hope that didn't cause any offence. I'll plead spell checker.



Georges,

I'm not quite clear on what the problem is with the top hat spacer.  Before installing the seal it's normal to push the top hat through from the back of the seal. To do it after seal installation is possible but risks damage to seal surface.

Barry,

None taken! I understood what you were saying.

Georges,

The top hats can be inserted either with the brim behind the seal or outside the seal.  I personally prefer the brim behind the seal so they always stay in place.  The seal face should be inserted flush with the hub.

What year is your bike?

Not quite sure what the problem is either ... did you record what top hat was on what side during disassembly? Do you have your axle spacer installed?  Can't refer to any of my pictures at the moment since I'm corresponding from work but I'll check in tonight when I return home.
Mike V. / San Diego
'78 R100/7 (original owner)
'81 R65 (fully restored)

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 02:20:46 PM »
Mike,
The bike is a 1982.
My problem is that the new top hat is not the good one. It is too short. If the hat touches the bearing, the lip of the seal is free. So in order to have the hat on the bearing and the lip sealing the spacer, I've to install the lip seal way into the hub.
Tomorrow, I'll check with the BMW part number on the pouch and the fiche to see where the error lies.
Thank you for your help !

Offline Mike V

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 02:28:42 PM »
<snipped>
Quote
I am in the lower value and can't turn the axe by hand now that the new seals are in place  

Doesn't sound right to me. ???

Are the seals interrupting the rollers?

Mike V. / San Diego
'78 R100/7 (original owner)
'81 R65 (fully restored)

Offline Barry

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2016, 02:51:47 PM »
Quote
My problem is that the new top hat is not the good one. It is too short. If the hat touches the bearing, the lip of the seal is free. So in order to have the hat on the bearing and the lip sealing the spacer, I've to install the lip seal way into the hub.
Tomorrow, I'll check with the BMW part number on the pouch and the fiche to see where the error lies.



There are at least two different lengths of top hat spacer. 9mm, 13mm and maybe more.  Looks like you were supplied with the wrong length.

I know on my rear wheel the spacer doesn't protrude very much beyond the seal lip so a shorter spacer would not work.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 02:54:55 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2016, 03:10:49 PM »
Mike, I do not  own a spare axle. So  I tried to turn the bearings by applying my thumbs on the top hat spacers. I've not enough force in my fingers to rotate the top hat spacers and the bearings this way.
As my rear axle is pitted and somewhat rusty, I'll order a new one and use this one as a spare and on my wheel balancing device.

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Rear wheel bearings
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2016, 07:50:53 AM »
So, yesterday, I got the top hat spacer.
There are three size : small medium and tall.
The small is said 9.2 mm and is used on the brake side of the rear wheel. Standard fitting.
The medium one is said 10.7 mm high and is also used on the right hand side of the rear wheel when one want to use larger rear tires.
And then there is the tall one. It is used on both side of the front wheel and on the left side of the rear wheel.
I had a 10.7  tall one served in a pouch labeled like the tall one. So this is why i was confused !
Now, the rear wheel is ready to be fitted, when I get the brake pad from the guy refurbishing them !
Thanks for your help.