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Author Topic: Questions on broken piston  (Read 3099 times)

Offline Einar

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Questions on broken piston
« on: January 20, 2016, 05:46:01 PM »
Hi everyone.

I am embarking on a project to rebuild the cylinders.
When opening up I found, the right piston to be broken.

My questions are:

1. Can I drive with the current piston you see in the picture?
2. Can I simply buy a new piston off eBay and install into the existing body? If not, what do I need to do? If yes, what about ovalisation, wear etc?
3. I found parts of the broken piece, 0,5 x 1,0 cm in size, just under the piston. The rest is nowhere to be seen, I assume inside the engine.
What is the probability that this will become a problem in the future?
Can it be cleaned out (assuming that my 2 oilchanges has not yet cleaned it out).
Do I leave it as is?

The bike otherwise runs well, I bought it last summer and has put about 1500 miles on it without any problems.
I'm trying to find an economic and safe solution to the problem.

Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
Einar
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 05:46:25 PM by Einar »
Best regards,
Einar

Virago XV125 ('99)
BMW R1200C ('98)
BMW R75/5 ('71)

Offline montmil

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2016, 06:46:05 PM »
Quote
Hi everyone.

I am embarking on a project to rebuild the cylinders.
When opening up I found, the right piston to be broken.

My questions are:

1. Can I drive with the current piston you see in the picture?
     I would strongly advise you to NOT operate the bike with the damaged piston. You'll note the break is on  the piston's thrust surface. Heavy operational forces at the piston's six and twelve o'clock. Should the damaged piston decide to let go during engine ops, the damage could very well be catastrophic.
2. Can I simply buy a new piston off eBay and install into the existing body? If not, what do I need to do? If yes, what about ovalisation, wear etc?
     You did not mention your R65 model year but it is highly likely that you have the Nikasil cylinders. The plating is extremely durable. If there is no visible damage to the plating, it's possible that a low mileage piston could be installed. That or a complete cylinder and piston might be a better choice.
3. I found parts of the broken piece, 0,5 x 1,0 cm in size, just under the piston. The rest is nowhere to be seen, I assume inside the engine.
     Pull the oil pan. You'll find the broken bits. They won't all be flushed out by a simple oil change.
What is the probability that this will become a problem in the future?
     With a replacement cylinder and piston, odds are good that you will not likely experience a reoccurance of a broken piston.
Can it be cleaned out (assuming that my 2 oilchanges has not yet cleaned it out).
Do I leave it as is?
     Reference my response to #3.

The bike otherwise runs well, I bought it last summer and has put about 1500 miles on it without any problems.
I'm trying to find an economic and safe solution to the problem.

Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
Einar
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Einar

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 04:53:39 AM »
Thanks for the quick and clear response. Much appreciated.

Next step then to actually remove the cylinder from the rod (there is a very annoying lock ring I'm struggling to get out) and the oil pan as you suggested.

My bike is a 1981 so it should be a Nikasil cylinder indeed.

Will do some investigating on the cost before deciding on whether to buy just the piston or piston + cylinder. The latter obviously the preferred choice.

I am sure I will have more questions as this rebuilding slowly progresses, and your input is as always invaluable to a BMW rookie like myself.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 05:31:42 AM by Einar »
Best regards,
Einar

Virago XV125 ('99)
BMW R1200C ('98)
BMW R75/5 ('71)

Offline montmil

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 08:38:54 AM »
Quote

Next step then to actually remove the cylinder from the rod (there is a very annoying lock ring I'm struggling to get out)...

I have found the use of a scratch awl or similar pointed tool is helpful. There should be a small recess where a portion of the circlip is exposed. Work the awl's point under the clip and lever it out. Those clips usually fly out and disappear into a parallel universe. Mine occasional return months later none the worse for their travels.

No worries about damaging the piston. ;)
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 11:43:15 AM »
If you put the whole piston into a big plastic bag, the flying clips may be prevented to go to outer space.
A new cylinder and piston from Mr BMW costs around 700 € ....
Siebenrok does an oversize Nikasil kit which will make your R65 a 860 ... I don't know the price though.

Offline Einar

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 12:57:44 PM »
Thank you for the input Monte. Yes a scratch awl or a thiiiin plyer of some sort is my best bet. I need to buy one as I don't have much tools in my garage.
Ah well, it's just a broken piston, no biggie ;)
Best regards,
Einar

Virago XV125 ('99)
BMW R1200C ('98)
BMW R75/5 ('71)

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2016, 03:20:34 PM »
Quote
Next step then to actually remove the cylinder from the rod (there is a very annoying lock ring I'm struggling to get out) and the oil pan as you suggested.

There are Youtube videos on how to remove wrist pins (aka gudgeon pins), it is not difficult but there is a bit of a trick in them out - but please do not plan on re-using them.

When it is time to remove the wrist/gudgeon pin, if you have a friend who owns a "piston pin puller" thank them kindly and refuse the use of it. What you need to do is heat the piston to the point where you can push the pin out with your finger (or if too hot, with the back end of a screw driver). My preferred method of heating pistons is to simply wave a heat gun at them until the pin slips easily (it generally does not take much), an alternate method is to cut up an old towel and wrap it around the piston and then pour boiling water over it.

 


My bike is a 1981 so it should be a Nikasil cylinder indeed.

A 2 sec test with a magnet will tell you - if the magnet sticks to the bores you have 1979/80 cylinders, if it does not you have Nikasil.

Will do some investigating on the cost before deciding on whether to buy just the piston or piston + cylinder. The latter obviously the preferred choice.

Pistons come in weight ranges, ideally the replacement piston should be the same as the remaining one, but to be honest I doubt that the world will end if they are mis-matched but you might have a slightly higher level of vibration

To echo Monte's comments, your sump has to come off.

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Einar

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 04:43:54 PM »
Thank you all for the great support and good advise.
Great input, Tony.

I have finally gotten around to taking off the piston. The gudgeon pin came out without me heating the wrist. A few gentle knocks with the back of a screw driver and it came out.

 I obvously have more questions now that I am nearly "half-way" there (just need to put it back together, right?).

1. Thanks for bringing to my attention the weight range. How do I know what I need? I weigh it or are the markings on the inside of the piston by any chance the weight specification?
2. Do I need to change the piston rings or can I reuse them?
3. Do I need to change the gudgeon pin?
4. Is there any way to tell from these photos if the cylinder absolutely needs to be changed along with the piston?
I wasn't planning on buying a new cylinder, simply change out the piston with a low-milage 2nd hand one. Economy as well as durability is key to my repairs. I see different recommendations on whether to change cylinder whenever you change piston.

Best regards,
Best regards,
Einar

Virago XV125 ('99)
BMW R1200C ('98)
BMW R75/5 ('71)

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 08:23:46 PM »
Thank you all for the great support and good advise.
Great input, Tony.

I had the advantage of following Monte, as always he was right on the money.

I have finally gotten around to taking off the piston. The gudgeon pin came out without me heating the wrist. A few gentle knocks with the back of a screw driver and it came out.

That is actually a little cause for concern, the pin should be a very light interference fit in the piston and require a little heating to get it to move, still if you had to tap it that probably just about qualifies.... However, if there are pronounced "gold" lines either side of the center of the wrist pin run your finger gently over the "lines" if you can feel a ridge you are going to be buying some parts and time in a machine shop.

If there are no "lines' and no ridge, put the pin into the small end of the rod and try to "rock" it, any significant movement and you will need to have things measured up to determine if a refurbishment is needed.

If no significant movement, no problem. On the outside chance that you have the equipment - measure the little end and pin to check that they are within wear limits.


 

1. Thanks for bringing to my attention the weight range. How do I know what I need? I weigh it or are the markings on the inside of the piston by any chance the weight specification?

I may have been talking through my hat, I've reviewed my manual and i think i should have said SIZE range, pistons and barrels come in "A, B, & C" sizes - the pistons should be the same and they should match the barrels in an ideal world. In the real world you select fit, and that does include making sure that the pistons weight the same - a simple beam balance and a bastard cut file are all you need. Reading my manual I see that they say that wrist pin circlips MAY have a round side and a flat side. FWIIW I have never seen any that were not round on both sides.  


2. Do I need to change the piston rings or can I reuse them?

If they are undamaged and the end gaps are Ok in the bores you are going to use them in, then yes. BUT rings are cheap, I would buy new ones and also new wrist pin circlips. Remember that if you have Nikasil bores then there is only one set of rings you can fit, but if you have iron bores you can buy R75 2nd oversize rings and then select fit the rings by installing them in the bore and then measure the end gap, use a fine flat file to adjust. For some reason R75 rings can be as little as 1/2 the price of R65 rings which is odd as they have the same basic dimensions.


3. Do I need to change the gudgeon pin?
I would hope not, because if the pin is worn, fair chance the little end will be too, which will mean to need to buy new little end bushes and take them and the new wrist pins to a good machine shop and have them install the new bushes and then ream them to fit the pins. As you will be removing the rods to do this, think about new big end bearings and the fact that you will also be buying 4 new big end bolts. I have done this job myself, but I have tools that are not usually found in most home workshops, I had to use an adjustable reamer which meant about 10 ream/measure/ream cycles, with luck a machine shop will have the correct sized reamer and will do it in one pass.

4. Is there any way to tell from these photos if the cylinder absolutely needs to be changed along with the piston?
I wasn't planning on buying a new cylinder, simply change out the piston with a low-milage 2nd hand one. Economy as well as durability is key to my repairs. I see different recommendations on whether to change cylinder whenever you change piston.

I can see a nasty vertical line in the cylinder which means that to a purist that bore is toast. However, if you want to roll the dice (and be aware that is what you are doing) you could use it and see how much oil it burns, if not offensively high you may choose to live with it. I'd like to see better photos of the bore before you decide one way or the other.

Best regards,

And the very best to you also, you have a job of work in front of you
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2016, 02:30:50 AM »
Hello !
Even if Nickasyl, you can hone the cylinder and see if the nasty vertical line disappears...

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2016, 03:38:14 AM »
Quote
Hello !
Even if Nickasyl, you can hone the cylinder and see if the nasty vertical line disappears...


I will respectfully disagree - the nikasil lining is already pretty thin and depending on how much it was ground/honed to bring it to size originally, it may be very thin indeed. My view is that the only thing that should go near a nikasil bore is a non-metallic kitchen scourer (scotchbrite) and strong detergent.

You can get nikasil bores re-lined, but until the supply of serviceable 2nd hand barrels dries up it isn't really cost effective.

I suppose I should say that from what I can see I would probably re0use that barrel, but I would do so in the knowledge that it will use oil and that it might use more than I am prepared to live with.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Barry

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2016, 04:00:11 AM »
Besides the piston size groupings A,B or C, pistons should be marked either  + or -  on the crown to indicate the weight grouping. The idea being that both pistons should have the same weight marking.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 04:02:05 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline montmil

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2016, 07:06:25 AM »
Quote
Hello !
Even if Nickasyl, you can hone the cylinder and see if the nasty vertical line disappears...

Do not attempt to hone Nikasil cylinders! Although the photos are a bit dark, it's still easy to spot the OEM hone marks in the lower visible portion of the cylinder's bore. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Late last year when I did a full top end on my 1981 R65, I could not see the factory hone marks. But, after reading Snowbum's instructions, I used a tub of hot, soapy water and a 'green' aka: coarse Scotchbrite pad to scrub the glaze from the bores. Urethra! The hone marks magically reappeared.

Our Nikasil R65 bores require the softer iron piston rings, not chrome, as with the iron bore jugs. As the bore plating is all but bulletproof, it's the rings that wear, not the cylinder walls.

Unless there is obvious flaking of the bore plating, you may quite likely be OK with the jug you have. I'd put it back in service after its bubble bath.
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline montmil

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2016, 07:21:48 AM »
Quote
Thank you all for the great support and good advise.
Great input, Tony.

I had the advantage of following Monte, as always he was right on the money. You're embarrassing me, Tony.

I have finally gotten around to taking off the piston. The gudgeon pin came out without me heating the wrist. A few gentle knocks with the back of a screw driver and it came out.


1. Thanks for bringing to my attention the weight range. How do I know what I need? I weigh it or are the markings on the inside of the piston by any chance the weight specification?

Reading my manual I see that they say that wrist pin circlips MAY have a round side and a flat side. FWIIW I have never seen any that were not round on both sides.    For the R65 line, I believe all the circlips are of the obnoxious round wire variety. My R100S has circlips that require the use of, well, circlip pliers for removal. One face has rounded edges while the other has square edges. So here's another mark on the infallible and always accurate shop manuals.

2. Do I need to change the piston rings or can I reuse them?

If they are undamaged and the end gaps are Ok in the bores you are going to use them in, then yes. BUT rings are cheap, I would buy new ones and also new wrist pin circlips. Remember that if you have Nikasil bores then there is only one set of rings you can fit, but if you have iron bores you can buy R75 2nd oversize rings and then select fit the rings by installing them in the bore and then measure the end gap, use a fine flat file to adjust. For some reason R75 rings can be as little as 1/2 the price of R65 rings which is odd as they have the same basic dimensions.  If using new rings, confirm top and bottom of each ring. Some may be marked while others are not. I recall Snowbum's site may have photos to assist in confirming ring orientation. Your decision on either a new or used piston should drive the new/used ring selection.

4. Is there any way to tell from these photos if the cylinder absolutely needs to be changed along with the piston?
I wasn't planning on buying a new cylinder, simply change out the piston with a low-milage 2nd hand one. Economy as well as durability is key to my repairs. I see different recommendations on whether to change cylinder whenever you change piston. After scrubbing the cylinder bore, use a strong flashlight and give it the hard eyeball exam. I'd bet your existing jug will be good to go.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 07:31:23 AM by montmil »
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Einar

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Re: Questions on broken piston
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2016, 05:31:21 PM »
Awesome input! You guys are life savers. I'm trying to absorb all your knowledge!

I now feel I have a good idea on how to proceed with next step, and I will get to work over the weekend and once I get all the parts. Cylinder + rings most importantly).

I feel reassured that I can reuse the old cylinder (after a sponge/bubblebath) safely without causing damage though I will need to closely monitor the oil loss. I have not detected any ridges or noticable scratches across the discolorations/"gold lines" in the bore or on the pin.

Thank you for your follow-up!
Next step will take me a while but I will update the post as soon as I make progress.
Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 04:57:24 PM by Einar »
Best regards,
Einar

Virago XV125 ('99)
BMW R1200C ('98)
BMW R75/5 ('71)