New Battery - Lithium?

[steve hawkins]

My battery has not survived the winter on my R100, so I am looking for a new one.

However I would like to take the opportunity to fit one of them there small batteries, that can be mounted any ways up, so that I can tuck away somewhere out of sight.

Can anyone put me onto the right track?

Cheers

Rev Light

[Tony Smith]

A lithium battery will certainly do the job, but it will cost a bomb.
 
I am using a gel cell battery in the R65 - it was a bit of a punt but cost no more than a cheapish wet cell battery.
 
To date the biggest thing is the extremely slow self discharge, it was nearly 5 months from when I bought it to the first time i cranked the R65 over - and that was only to prove the starter rebuild was a success. Then I cranked it quite a long time to oil it up and finally went for a start - ran for a while, all with the alternator not connected.
 
Impressed the hell out of me. Be aware however that there is no graceful failure with a gel cell, they are literally perfect one day and won;t even pull in the starter solenoid the next.
 
Lithium are lighter too. But gee they cost. I am gettign one for the KLE, but that is in recognition of the type of road I plan to use the KLE on. The Yamaha has a Lithium battery in it, obviously no start load, but I use it to run a couple of LED lights in a wand when camping and to recharge cameras, mp3 players and SPOT gps locator. I am impressed with how long the Lithium has survived, including being accidentally run to near flat a couple of times.

[Barry]

I'll echo Tony's experience with a Gel battery in terms of very slow self discharge rate and they can be mounted anyways up except I think up side down. I've never left one 5 months but I've no doubt they do it as my spec sheet says 82% charge retained after 6 months @ 25 Deg C and 65% after 12 months which is remarkable.

Lithium would have to come a long way down in price before I'd consider one. I don't know what the published self discharge  rates are for Lithium but if they are anything like laptop batteries they will not be as good as a Gel or AGM. At the price I'd be wanting perfection.

[montmil]

Lithium batteries are the hot set up with the race bike and custom, trailer queen scooter folks. I occasionally visit a local road race course during open track bike days and that's pretty much all I see. Same goes during my visit to the recent IMS show -batteries concealed in seat bum stops. Lightweight. Tuck in up anywhere and in any position. As one of our own members would say, "Lighter. Faster."

I understand the lithium battery requires an entirely different charger than what we are commonly using on our sloshed and/or SLA/AGM units.

My feeling is, for a street bike, the cost is exorbitant for both battery and charger in terms of gain. However, there is a certain cache to be gained in the bike park.

[steve hawkins]

Well the R100 battery sure is a monster.  I would love to lose it for that 'hipster bobber' look that the bike almost has.

I will see what the price is for the UK....What am I thinking? - if you yanks think its expensive its going to be exorbitant over here.

Googling,

Rev light

[steve hawkins]

Well, the prices seem to have dropped to somewhere near the 'odyssey' ball park.  I have yet to confirm.  But they do not seem to be as expensive as they once were.  

But that might be manufacturer/quality dependent.  

Watch this space.

Rev Light

[Matt Chapter]

Well the R100 battery sure is a monster.  I would love to lose it for that 'hipster bobber' look that the bike almost has.

Seems like you should be able to use the same battery as the R65?  I'm on my second sealed AGM battery, first one I got from the dealer for 120$, second one I ordered from Gruber for 50 or 60$.  It's big, but at the same time I think it fits in the sidecover on my 400..  My first AGM battery lasted almost 6 years, and I'm better about using a tender now so I have high hopes for the new one.

[Barry]

When choosing an equivalent Lithium battery be careful about what they say is equivalent. Apparently the truth is somewhat stretched as they will say for example that a particular battery is equivalent to a conventional 18 Ah when in fact it's only 4 Ah. What they sort of mean is that it will crank like an 18 AH battery would ...but not for very long. Another issue is they perform very poorly in the cold.

If you have the time and the inclination this is the definitive thread on Lithium ion batteries for bikes

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

[nhmaf]

Yes, lithium battery performance does depend alot on the temperature - I wouldn't try to run one here with so much of the riding season near 32F.   They can provide a fair amount of juice at first, too, but fade fast so if it is cool and the bike doesn't start easily, you may be sitting there awhile.

The charging voltage/current profile for Lithium is definitely not the same as the guys say above - most  motorcycle chargers do not provide the proper profile to work properly charging them, so you'll likely be shopping for a new charger, too.

[Bob_Roller]

If the lithium batteries are so finicky with how you charge them with an external charger, isn't a motorcycle charging system the worst way to treat these batteries ??  
They are anything but a stable charging platform .

[nhmaf]

Simple standard Lithium cells are finicky - they cannot be discharged below 2.9V or charged above about 4.2V without incurring some loss of capacity.   The cell needs a small trickle charge of about 5%-10% rated charge current if it is below 3V, and from 3V and above it can take its full charging current which can be 10X the trickle current.   Once the voltage reaches about 4.2V per cell the current must be stopped or there is risk of causing plating damage to the cell.  Furthermore, the cell needs to be charged to its full rated voltage to maintain full charge capacity.  If it is only charged to about 95% rated voltage, it may be at only approx 70% charge capacity.
Consequently, the larger lithium battery packs for motorcycles etc, actually consist of a "package" of several cells, and some embedded "smart charge control" device electronics to manage these current profiles to the cells when the net current is going into the battery instead of out of the battery.   These things enable it to survive in an automotive/motorcycle charging environment, but are also partly why the lithium packs are so expensive.   If you had a primitive/simple lithium cell like what is commonly found in a cell phone, the charge control electronics have to be incorporated onto the phone's circuit board.

Because the battery pack has to sort of control its own charging, the changes in the charging current can confuse the typical "smart" battery chargers that expect a fairly linear charge current rate, from higher current at low voltage/high discharged state down to a constant trickle current at fully charged state.   If the smart external charger tries to treat the lithium batter pack like a lead acid/AGM battery it may not charge the lithium cells fully and may get faked out into thinking it is charged.   This might be a scenario where a "dumb" battery charger might actually work better than a smart charger, provided that the charge control electronics in the battery pack are up to the task of fully controlling the charge of the cells.

[montmil]

If the lithium batteries are so finicky with how you charge them with an external charger, isn't a motorcycle charging system the worst way to treat these batteries? <snip> They are anything but a stable charging platform.

As I mentioned earlier, lithium motorcycle batteries are the hot setup on many race bikes that operate on a total loss electrical system. After each practice session and/or heat race, batteries are swapped out and placed on a charger powered by the racer's portable electric generator that's happily chugging away beneath the team's pit shade awning. That same generator also runs the electric-powered starter rollers for the race bike's rear wheel.

So far, we have from previous posts: a small, expensive battery that's finicky, can be permanently damaged by overcharging, requires a special 'smart charger', is temperature sensitive to both hot and cold, and may crank as an 18AH battery but not for long..."

Gosh. What's not to like?  

[Bob_Roller]

That's my point exactly !!!!

[Barry]

All the issues explain why Lithium batteries are unlikely to become mainstream. Even the guy on ADV that I provided a link to admitted most people would be better off with an AGM unless the weight was making the decision.

As for charging surely something that mimics the bikes charging system would do the job in other words a simple voltage regulated charger set at 14.3 volts or whatever the exact voltage should be.

[steve hawkins]

Its not the weight in my case.  Its the size, and the fact that what I really want to do is hide the battery out of sight.  There is no hiding the standard battery, remember its an R100, the battery is bigger than that fitted to the R65.

What I have found out so far is that:

1.  I am going to need at least 12 cells, 14 or 16 cells might be safer for an R100 - not so small then.
2.  Some manufacturers/sellers are very light on spec details, particularly sizes and capacity, in some cases.  
3.  I have heard that some batteries are supplied almost in a 1 size fits all case, that can have a significant amount of 'air' in there, which is not going to help me.  Unless I strip out the contents to make a battery to my 'size' and of course, void my warrantee.
4.  All specs and promises should be taken with a pinch of salt.
5.  As usual, what the yanks pay in dollars, we pay in pounds, irrespective the exchange rate.  (i.e. if its $250 in the USA, its £250 in the UK).
6.  On the plus side, my bike is not and will never be festooned with lights, heated clothing and other accessories.
7.  Our charging systems, if working within specs, should be able to charge one of these batteries quite adequately.
8.  A change in behavior of the operator is required.  This battery will give its all, instantaneously, but will take some time to recover.  If you have starting issues, you can use all it has to give very quickly, if you buy a battery that is too small.  If you go on a short trip and use all your fairy lights, heated grips, jacket, etc.  Then park up.  The likely hood is, you won't be starting the bike next morning.  If you park you bike outside overnight, in freezing temperatures, it might not crank over in the morning.

In summary, specifying the right battery, with the right amount of capacity is very important.  Even the smallest batteries can crank over a motor in ideal conditions.  But you still need that extra capacity, especially if you are going to run her through the winter.  Try not to leave the bike outside overnight if its very cold.

I am still interested.  But I need to hold one in my hands.  Or build one myself?

Cheers

Steve