Wheel bearings / Back wheel alignment

[arvo92]

After purchasing the R65 in end of January, I finally got the brakes to the state I took the bike to a longer ride. After 10 miles of driving joyfully the bike started to shake and grind a lot. I stopped to realise the back wheel was misaligned from the place the wheel connects to the shaft drive. The axle bolt is totally closed though and how could it happen, I do not know.

I could scrape off metal flakes from the connection area. Has anyone ever encountered the same situation? How bad could it be? Potentially I hope taking the tyre off and installing it again would do it but I have no daylight today anymore to take the wheel off.

Couple of pictures. the wheel and shaft drive housing do not align parallel but have some gap in some areas and are rubbing against each other at shaft drive housing area.

[Bob_Roller]

My first guess, is wheel bearing problems .

[arvo92]

I had my dinner, took my head-torch out and took the wheel off. After removing the big axle nut, I could just swim the whole back wheel from side to side. The play was just incredible.

No picture since it is pitch dark outside but the wheel bearings were playing around their hub. I do not know how much movement there should be in a wheel bearing but I could just move them with a finger around their inner hub.

Seems like I am going to order a new set of bearings. Can I get away ordering just the bearings or should I order other items?

[Barry]

Seems like I am going to order a new set of bearings. Can I get away ordering just the bearings or should I order other items?  

Wheel bearings don't fail in such dramatic fashion without something else being wrong like the amount of pre-load applied. Excess pre-load due to incorrect shimming or the complete absence of the inner spacer between the inner bearings can lead to the whole bearing seizing up and the outer bearing spinning in the hub. That's bad news but it does sound like that's what happened to yours if I've understood you correctly in saying they are loose. The wheel will need a specialist repair to re-sleeve the hub or a replacement wheel may be needed.

 If you mean the inner races are loose and just fall out then that's normal but I don't see that fitting your symptoms.

[Mike V]

Wheel bearings don't fail in such dramatic fashion without something else being wrong..  

Did you have the top hats and axle spacer assembled correctly and in place?  Did you do any work before the ride with the wheel bearings? I would think the bearings would seize before the outer races would hollow out the hub.  Did you have the wedding band installed (correctly) with the correct preload? I would love to see some details of the way it came apart and some pictures of the damage to the bearings, hub and splines.

More questions than answers at this juncture. Hopefully we can sort this out.

[Tony Smith]

I see another has already suggested this. but before you go off half-cocked (I just love finding new ways to use that word that does not enliven the intervention of the naughty word filter this board uses) Search the ground near where you were working on the wheel last and locate the top hat or spacer you forgot to refit.

Refit top hat (or spacer) and ride happily off into the sunset.

[arvo92]

Ok. I try to answer to as many questions as I can at the same time. Sorry if I make lots of neewbie mistakes in terms, it is my first time taking wheel bearing assemblys apart:

I have never taken the wheel off myself. Yesterday was the first time.

Top hats were both there. They were aligned properly (edge side pressing on bearing).

The axle nut itself was tightened for doomsday - even when I got it turning it took me a few full turns to get it loose enough so it was sliding on threads. The good old 120 lbs for the torque wrench value I got from my workshop manual was the value I torqued it few weeks ago.

Bearings did not seize, the bearing shells did not spin around, they are still in place but have some marks on them from the bearing movement.
Bearings themselves are still intact. I will add a picture.

I took all the goodies out I could dig out by hand and aligned them on axle bolt the way they should go in. Bearing sleeves are still in there and behind them are two yellowish plastic rings. Still in fine condition. I can not get them out, the bearing sleeves are on the way.


I have no idea about wedding band preload. Wedding band is that metal spacer attached next in line to the inner spacing tube?

After taking the wheel off I came to this nice realization. Illustrated in the picture. 30k miles on the clock and the shaft splines are totaled? That is what you get with a bike with 10 previous owners. Another problem for me to fix. The shiny part in the background blur shows how wide the teeth have been previously. Could that have some influence on the bearing problem?

Hopefully I got it all down now. Thank you for all the info you have given me. Seems it is not a total disaster, I am assuming the axle nut was torqued much much more than it should have been.

[Barry]

The good old 120 lbs for the torque wrench value I got from my workshop manual was the value I torqued it few weeks ago.  

Which workshop manual was that ?

30ftlbs is nearer the mark. There is a method to check bearing pre-load to see if that spacer is the correct thickness as they are available in 2 thou increments. Yes the wedding band it is the narrow band on the right of your picture and the yellow plastic thing is nothing to worry about it's just a guide and can't come out without removing the outer races.

I would be suspicious of those wheel splines having covered only 30K.

[Luca]

I am assuming the axle nut was torqued much much more than it should have been.

You are correct, 120 ftlb's is way over the top (Plenty of chain driven bikes call for less than that).  Should be more like 30-35 ftlb's.

Final drive/rear wheel spline wear shouldn't result in lateral play of the back wheel, but it will give you driveline slop as you transition from acceleration/steady speed to dieseling (engine braking).  Those splines should be cleaned and lubed with a high moly grease--such as Honda Moly 60--every so often or they will wear quickly and if really neglected can rust, as is your case.

Your clutch/transmission input splines require the same lubrication.  If you haven't checked them I'd add that to yesterday's list before you wind up with a very expensive repair.

::edit::  and you'll want to check your rear wheel splines as well.  If they have worn excessively, they could  kill a new set of final drive splines

[Bob_Roller]

Looks like you all the parts for the bearing stack, but it may not be adjusted correctly to give the propr prload on the bearings .

The axle torque, is 45-50 Nm, 33-36 ft lbs .

So, 120 is waaaaaaay too much .

For final drive output spline lubrication, I just finished up the replacement of the output seal on my '81 R65, got the new brake shoes last week .

I thought the Honda moly 60 grease was too thin for this application, so I mixed it with sticky wheel bearing grease and applied it to the splines .

Your splines look like they are in need of replacement, or repair, if that is an option available to you in your area .

[arvo92]

I got the value from the BMW repair manual (the white one I got from Motorworks). I probably have mistaken some other value with it. As I look into the torque value section there I can not put a finger on it.

I was just reading about pre-loading the bearings. Is there a spacer kit available in England? I checked the Motorworks homesite and I can order only the wedding rings in increments but no washer kits.

I would be suspicious of those wheel splines having covered only 30K.

I am suspicious as well. The bike might be put together from different parts, who knows.

Your clutch/transmission input splines require the same lubrication

That is a major job which takes more than one day, isn't it? and I need special tools for holding the clutch together, right?
Again - not done this ever and it is a bit scary to think ripping the gearbox off and the bike into parts. I would like to be sure I have all the required tools before proceeding into it.

And instead Honda moly 60 I have Optimol paste and Castrol moly. I was thinking mixing them together in 50/50 ratio.

[arvo92]

Your splines look like they are in need of replacement, or repair, if that is an option available to you in your area .

I took the pre-cautionary measure and ordered a replacement part from ebay for a 100 pounds. Not cheap but at least the parts are available for these bikes still.

[Barry]

I had the same problem finding shims in the UK and I also thought the wedding band increments of 2 thou was too big so I made my own shims.  You won't know what size you'll need until the new bearings are assembled which can be a pain if you have to order more parts.

The gearbox input spline lube is not as bad as you think as there is no need to disturb the clutch. More like half a day or a little more if the gearbox is being completely removed.

[arvo92]

I also thought the wedding band increments of 2 thou was too big so I made my own shims

What is the material you used to make the shims? Is there a real easy "going to the hardware store" way?

My existing wedding band is 7.0mm exactly. and yes, .05a millimeter in technical standards is pretty wild increase. I would much more like to see .025 increase at tops, better .01 mm increase to get more accurate results.

I found this link -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVKPGcf0xag R100 which is very similar type of engine. Seems not to be too bad job for a beginner.

[Luca]

Cleaning and lubing the transmission/clutch splines can be done for the first time in under a day while drinking on the job  [smiley=beer.gif].  It's really worth it to get the job done on a new-to-you bike.

I like doing it Snobum's way, as you end up taking care of the clutch arm/throwout and swingarm all at the same time.  Did just the splines my first time, but the next season decided to do the whole shootin' match and found the extra bits worthwhile.

The video you linked is from Chris Harris, who has some other good airhead stuff on youtube as well.  He just closed his full time shop to do more of his video making.