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Author Topic: Compression Test  (Read 1708 times)

Offline Bob_Roller

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Compression Test
« on: March 11, 2014, 06:40:17 PM »
I've got seeping pushrod tube seals and cylinder base o-rings on my '81 R65 .

Last changed them in 1998 .

I'm planning on doing this when I'm on vacation in October / November .

The bike has 90,000 miles on it, with the original piston rings .

Took my compression gauge to work to check it against a calibrated gauge, found my gauge to be reading about 4 psi high at 150 psi on the calibrated gauge .

Did a compression test on a cold engine and got a reading of 148 psi .

This was with the carbs installed with the throttle opened all the way .

I guess I don't need to be concerned about piston rings just yet .
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 07:10:59 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 06:56:47 PM »
No - lucky you. But frankly, considering the small price involved, (and assuming you have nicasil bores) I'd throw new rings at it if I was doing the push rod tubes.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 07:49:10 PM »
I just checked prices on a set of piston rings, $63US for a set, that's one piston .

With shipping, or sales tax that's about $140US for 2 sets to do two pistons .

I think I'll not be changing the rings at this time  !!!!

The bike gets at most 2500-3000 miles a year on it now .

Probably last until I'm unable to ride a motorcycle anymore . 8-)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 07:50:43 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 01:29:23 AM »
Hello !
Did you had a valve job done before ? If no, I won't be concerned much with the rings but would be with the exhaust valve breaking...
I was lucky that one valve spring broke a few km before the exhaust valve broke... The repairman was astonished I did not ruin the engine at that time...
Just my 2 [ch8239]cents...

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 01:45:28 AM »
Quote
I just checked prices on a set of piston rings, $63US for a set, that's one piston

Whoever quoted you that is having a lend.
 
Motobins.co.uk price is 15 English Pounds, which roughly translates to 30 of our Australian Pacific Pesos, or about $29US per piston. Postage from England would be about $AU12 (call it $11US).

You need to change suppliers.


Motobins Part No.50375
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

arvo92

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 01:43:42 PM »
What value of PSI would you consider tolerable? I just did my check on yesterday and got average values for both cylinders as 122, they were damn close to each other though.

Just finished my first valve job as well, set the valve clearances.

At what value of PSI should the piston rings changed?

Offline montmil

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 02:03:27 PM »
Note that Bob's compression test was done on a cold engine and the numbers reflected are due to the thicker engine oil.

To compare your engine's compression with the factory specs, BMW recommends the compression test be carried out on an engine warmed up to normal operating temperature and with the battery at full charge.

Plugs should be removed and grounded securely to the cylinders. BMW recommends removing the Bing CV carbs but most folks short-cut this by propping open the carb butterflies. Your call.

Compression pressures:

Good....... over 145 psi (10.0 bbar)
Normal.... 123-145 psi (8.5 - 10.0 bar)
Poor........ below 123 psi (8.5 bar)    
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:04:25 PM by montmil »
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

arvo92

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 04:35:49 PM »
Thanks for the info, montmil. I tested my compression with the cold engine as well, I will re-do the testing with the abovementioned procedure.

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 05:24:57 PM »
I had the valves, seat, guides, springs and spring retainers replaced in 1998, the valves had severe recession .

It had around 45,000 miles on the bike at the time .

The price for rings surprised me, never purchsed rings before, had no idea what they cost .

Went to the Motobins site, yeah, 15GBP, about $25US per piston, that's a bit more realistic for what you are getting !!!!

I'll place my order at Motobins in mid September .

I'll try the compression test on a hot engine, it's only the second time I've done a test on this engine, last time, was after the head work was done .

Seemed a bit high for an engine with 90,000 miles !!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 06:13:13 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 09:14:59 PM »
You had it rebuilt in 1998 at 45,000 miles, it now has 90,000 on it, or alternatively at 2,500 per year, it has done at least 40,000 miles since the rebuild.
 
I'd be buying it some nice new exhaust valves too and have all guides k-lined (a really neat process that is nearly as long-lived as new guides and is repeatable in that new inserts can be put in when the old ones wear down. Cost is about $10 per guide here, they take a couple of minutes each.

If you don'ty want to buy new exhaust valves, I'll send you a photo of my RHS piston that got well perforated by a valve head at about 50,000 kilometers (31,250 miles).
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 09:38:57 PM »
Tony, the bike you had the valve come apart, was that a '79 or '80 model year bike ???
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 12:06:36 AM »
No, my R65 is a 1985 model and must have been one of the very last twin shock models down the production line, the data plate says September 1985.
 
My wife's R65, bought new in 1979, dropped a valve in 1987, I failed to record the mileage, but given that we were active riders in those days I would guess at around 70/80k (kilometers).
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Barry

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2014, 03:14:24 AM »
Any common circumstances when the valves dropped i.e. high revs, high temperatures ?

Presume they go at the join.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 03:15:57 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2014, 06:16:34 PM »
Quote
Any common circumstances when the valves dropped i.e. high revs, high temperatures ? .

Yes, High mileage and never had a guide re-line done.


Quote
Presume they go at the join.

I used to think that, mainly because for a long time I had an on going affection for VWs. once upon a time VWs experienced a number of failures that were due to incomplete welding at the join.

The above sentence needs some explanation so that some people do think I have gone mad.
 
Although neither is a "performance" engine, the Airhead boxer shares with the boxer VW the difficulty in maintaining exhaust valve temperature control. Both have solve the problem by using hollow exhaust valves, the hollow being partially filled with the metal Sodium which liquifies at a relatively temperature and "sloshes" around inside the valve and acts to transfer heat from the head of the valve to the walls and thence into the metal of the cylinder head.
 
The valve is formed in two parts, the sodium is introduced to the stem and then the stem and the head are rotated in opposite directions and then brought together with a certain amount of force. The result is that the two parts friction weld together, the completed valve is then ground to size and off it goes.
 
When VW (and for that matter BMW) first introduced Sodium filled exhaust valves they were a very avant garde thing found only in performance engines or engines of relatively high output. VW invested large in developing the technology to make sodium filled valves to the point that they could be fitted to a "budget" engine.
 
They succeeded, but along the way they had some teething troubles when valve heads that had been completely welded fell off with obvious results for the engine.
 
That problem was quickly sorted, but the myth of exhaust valves failing at the join remains to this day.

What actually happens is that the guide wears which allows the valve to [and here comes the word that the last time I used it this nanny state inspire board protected all readers from] c0ck over meaning that the valve head does not strike the seat truly square.
 
Now the exhaust valve is running at a nice cherry red heat range and it suffers an off-square landing on the seat 25 times per second at 6,000rpm. You can replicate this by feeding a piece of wire through a pipe and then repeatedly bending the wire at a point just below here it is supported by the pipe.
 
Eventually the wire will break, the time of breakage being determined by the quality of the metal in the wire and the amount of "bend" being applied.
 
When you think about it, exhaust valves are the "tough guys" of the internal combustion engine world - they take this kind of abuse for years and years.

But eventually, as you, I and sadly 1,000s of others know, they do give up..
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Compression Test
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 05:22:27 PM »
I remembered to perform a compression check when I got home from work today .

Hot engine, 25 miles at highway speeds .

132 on the left and 138 on the right .

That sounds a bit more normal for an engine with 90,000 miles on it .

So I will order a set of rings when I place an order with Motobins in about 4 months .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!