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Author Topic: oily mess  (Read 2728 times)

Offline jakebass12

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oily mess
« on: August 18, 2012, 10:46:46 AM »
i finally got my bike running and ive been going for short rides here and there but today as i was on my way home i noticed that my foot kept slipping off the rear brake pedal so i stopped to investigate and i noticed that my foot had oil all over it. so i checked the dip stick and the oil was below the minimum line.  :-/ so i tried to find out where the oil had leaked out. but i couldn't see where it had originated because there was oil everywhere. luckily i wasn't far from my house so i walked home and got some oil and filled her up. then i started it to see if the oil would leak out again. sure enough it did. it came out the oil filter plug. has this happened to anybody else before?

the last picture is of my bike as it is now.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:58:53 AM by jakebass12 »
1981 bmw r65. 1981 kawasaki kz550

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 11:17:41 AM »
I would remove the cover, have a drain pan under it to catch the oil that comes out .

Check the large white o-ring for damage, cuts, etc....., check to see if there is a large thin metal washer under the o-ring .

You may want to clean the area up with engine cleaner, to see if the push rod tube seals are also leaking .

Here's a link to  an airhead BMW technical site, more info than you know what to do  with .

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Oil.htm

It does explain checking the inner oil filter canister to see if it has moved, not a common issue, but it does happen .

You're checking to see how far in the canister is, that's the small lip you see when you remove the oil filter from the housing .

If the canister has migrated inwards, there is insufficient pressure on the large white o-ring and it doesn't seal as it should .

A couple of members here had a formula based on your measurement to determine if you need extra steel washers under the shim to get the correct 'preload' on the o-ring .

I'm sure it will get posted sometime today .
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 11:45:34 AM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Bob_Roller

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oily mess
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 11:18:47 AM »
[movedhere] Chit-Chat [move by] Bob_Roller.
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline nhmaf

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 11:56:50 AM »
First of all, we need to know if you understand how the oil filter is to be installed - it isnt hard, but it also isnt as obvious as some might think.  Also, have you noticed the oil pressure warning light (red light in center of dash, but do not confuse with the GEN red light) come on when the engine is running?

I would get an oil filter from a dealer with the entire `kit` of bits - it should come with the oil filter, a paper gasket, a large o-ring (used to be white, some might be black in color now), and a circular metal `shim`.

When you take the 3 bolts off the oil filer cover, some oil will come out, but not all of it.  Still, you may as well drain the engine oil first and plan on replacing that as well.   When you remove the oil filter cover, it will likely have large o-ring stuck on the inside of it.  Inspect this for cuts, nicks, gouges, etc.   You will be replacing this with the new one from the kit, but if that o-ring is compromised, it can cause the leaks, and it can also cause catastrophic drop in oil pressure which can damage the engine in short order - this is why it is called the $2000 o-ring.   You can google it for more info if needed.

The next thing in the housing should be a thin circular metal shim, with the oil filter probably sticking to it.   This shim is also a very critical part of the puzzle, and if it is damaged it must be replaced with one from the oil filter kit.   You will also notice that the shim is just stamped out of thin metal, so one side may have some sharp ridges on the edge - these ridges should be placed INWARD toward the filter and AWAY from the delicate, $2000 o ring

Anyhow, remove the oil filter and examine it for signs of being crushed/flattened - this can be a sign of excessive pressure - or just a crappy quality filter.   Many of us use the hinged-filter (looks like 2 short filers with a flexible hinge bit inthe middle) as these are sturdier and less prone to flattening, but a quality single straight tube filter should also be OK.

After removal of the oil filter, look down into the oil filter housing - it is often called the cannister - and at the `bottom` - actually the furthest in wall, you should seewhat looks like a small ball bearing showing - this is the pressure relief bypass valve which takes over if the filter cannot flow oil back into the engine.     Just take a long screwdriver and push inward on that ball bearing thing a bit to see that it moves inward and springs back into position properly.

Around the outside of the circular oil filter canister, but under the outer edge of the oil filter cover you removed, is where the paper gasket goes - if it is needed.   If your bike has one on it, the paper gasket it probably cemented to the outside of the engine case at this point.   The paper gasket is used to control the amount of compression of that big o-ring.  The paper gasket itself doesnt really seal in any oil.   The o-ring is supposed to be compressed by  between 15%-25% of its thickness, making it appear slightly squared off in cross section instead of round when it is removed.   We measure the depth of the oil filter housing `lip` just inside the engine case to determine whether to use the paper gasket, or not, or sometimes a couple gaskets, to achieve the proper amount of compression.   We can help you with that bit in a followup post on this thread.  
For starters, I would begin by getting the aforementioned oil filter kit as you will need that before you dive in there.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline nhmaf

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 12:02:32 PM »
I see also that your cover has a mixture of hex head bolts and allen-bolts on it, so it is apparent that a PO has been in there and making `substitutions` - it is possible they may had stripped out the threads in the engine case (be careful/aware to not super-torque those bolts as they are steel bolts going into aluminum alloy).   If the PO had stripped them and not done a good job on the repair, it might be related to the oil leak.    Pay attention to those bolt holes when you remove the cover...
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Mike V

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 12:30:43 PM »
Quote
I see also that your cover has a mixture of hex head bolts and allen-bolts on it, so it is apparent that a PO has been in there and making `substitutions` - it is possible they may had stripped out the threads in the engine case (be careful/aware to not super-torque those bolts as they are steel bolts going into aluminum alloy).   If the PO had stripped them and not done a good job on the repair, it might be related to the oil leak.    Pay attention to those bolt holes when you remove the cover...

+1.  That's the first thing I would check for. Pretty suspicious history about the mixture of hardware on the filter cover plate from your pictures. Then follow the advice of Bob and nhmaf.  Any indication of your oil pressure light coming on as mentioned?  Measure the cannister depth in as many locations as you can.

The cannisters have been known to move inwards - but unlikely.

Mike V. / San Diego
'78 R100/7 (original owner)
'81 R65 (fully restored)

adictiverx

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 12:48:25 PM »
Quote
I see also that your cover has a mixture of hex head bolts and allen-bolts on it, so it is apparent that a PO has been in there and making `substitutions` - it is possible they may had stripped out the threads in the engine case (be careful/aware to not super-torque those bolts as they are steel bolts going into aluminum alloy).   If the PO had stripped them and not done a good job on the repair, it might be related to the oil leak.    Pay attention to those bolt holes when you remove the cover...

+1 I wouldnt be surprised if the PO used standard thread rather than metric bolts :P

Offline jakebass12

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 04:12:24 PM »
i haven't noticed the oil pressure light come on at all. well i found out why it was leaking. its because the paper seal around was torn also the oil filter was flattened. and the 2000 gasket is fine and the ball bearing springs back.
1981 bmw r65. 1981 kawasaki kz550

Offline nhmaf

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 04:23:17 PM »
Well, this sounds less ominous, then.

As I indicated in my note - the paper seal doesnt really seal the oil in - it is for setting the amount of squeeze on the o-ring.   if the o-ring isnt squeezed like I said, or it is super squeezed and cut/torn, then you will have a leak.   with the flattened filter in there, the pressure was likely higher than usual, too, which pushes harder against the o-ring.

If you have a dial caliper with a depth gauge, it would be good to measure the depth of the oil canister lip from the outside surface of the engine case in 3-5 places around the circumference.  Record them in your motorcycle journal (you do keep one, dont you?) and let us know the measurements...  You can average the measurements to get average depth of the canister, and that we use to tell how many paper gaskets, etc. might be needed for the optimum `squeeze` on the infamous o-ring.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline jakebass12

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 06:15:44 PM »
so what could cause the pressure to flatten the oil filter?
1981 bmw r65. 1981 kawasaki kz550

Offline Mike V

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 06:55:52 PM »
That's a question that's been passed around a lot. Others on this forum have experienced the same damage to filters.  Oil pressures at cold start-up + high revs can result in very high pressures.  Some have stated ±100psi. I've been lucky and never experienced this condition. I would recommend OEM or Mann/Mahle hinged oil filters.  Others have had good luck with some others but some research on the subject can lend some background for you to help in the decision process.  I don't have a problem spending a minimal amount more on quality filters, it's cheap insurance in my opinion.  

When you measure your cannister depth, post the values and we can help you wth the shim/o-ring/gasket fitment.

If you have some time; here's a link to Snowbum's rundown..
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/oil.htm

« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 07:16:43 PM by Mike_V »
Mike V. / San Diego
'78 R100/7 (original owner)
'81 R65 (fully restored)

Offline Semper Gumby

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 06:59:02 PM »
The long oil filter is susceptible to high oil pressure "crushing" it.  That is why most of us use the bendy one.

You really need to find out how many shims it take to not have leaks without using the paper gasket.  If you have the right pressure on the $2000 ($3000) dollar O-ring then you do not need the gasket.

My bike is a 2 shim bike but every bike is different because BMW didn't make the depth of the lip of the oil filter canister the same on every bike.

You need to read the Snowbum's article on this topic and then perform his procedure to calculate how many shims you need.  Then you can throw away the paper gaskets forever.

It was mentioned before, its a tough read but understanding it is extremely important.

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Oil.htm

After you get done reading this - read it again.

Also read here "Canister Depth"  http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/

Good luck - we are all counting on you.  [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]

« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 07:52:59 PM by Semper_Gumby »
Bill Gould ?1980/03 R65 When at first you don't succeed....Moo!

Offline jakebass12

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 10:12:53 PM »
Quote
/

Good luck - we are all counting on you.  [smiley=bmw_smiley.gif]


counting on me why?
1981 bmw r65. 1981 kawasaki kz550

Offline Barry

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 04:53:42 AM »
This whole 2000$ O ring business is a sort or right of passage to airhead ownership. In truth it's not the best bit of engineering on the bike but once it's understood and sorted should be no further cause of trouble.

The filter cover gasket is just a spacer included or not to ensure adequate compression of the O ring.  It should have no part what so ever in keeping the oil in. If you assemble that cover with the gasket bone dry it should come off next time bone dry.

The large O ring and shim keep the oil in and ensure proper oil pressure. In your case the O ring and shim leaked either because of insufficient compression or damage but none of this is related to your crushed oil filter which is a separate issue.  I Had one crush a few years back and concluded it was due to over revving the engine in sub zero deg C temperatures although I was also concerned that axial pressure on the filter may have predisposed it to crush as there is some variability in oil filter lengths. It didn't do any permanent damage as far as I can tell and it hasn't happened again so I no longer worry about it.

If you measure the canister depth and use the correct combination shims/gaskets to achieve proper compression of the O ring and keep the revs down with cold oil that should resolve both issues for good.

Here's a link to a previous thread about a crushed oil filter and it also has a table for what gaskets/shims to use with any given canister depth measurement.

http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269110468/0#0
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 04:56:13 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

raymr

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Re: oily mess
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2012, 07:08:16 PM »
I've been looking at this some myself, and have to wonder why the engineers went through the trouble of specifying a paper gasket. I'm thinking it's a last line of defense so if, for example, the $2K o-ring sinks inward or gets damaged, the oil will still stay in the engine.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 07:15:32 PM by raymr »