Diagnosis please?

[k_enn]

I have some issues going with starting the bike.  It may actually be two issues, but combined they are significant problem.

First -- the stater.  Over the past week, the stater seems to be slowing down, and it is rapidly getting progressively worse.  It has reached the point where it seems to just barely crank the engine for a turn or two, and then seems to give up.  It has no strength to crank the engine; just barely enough to start is the engine has been warmed up.  Sometimes I detect what may be a slight sound similar to a grinding from the starter area.  The problem seems much worse on the first start of the day when the engine is stone cold.  Yesterday, I  had to push start the bike.  After it got started and warmed up, it would restart but the starter was still very weak in cranking the engine.  Here is what I have checked out so far:  

Battery- reading 12.5 volts after several hours of riding.  When the engine is turning over 3,000 rpm it reads about 13.25 volts.  The battery is new, and even with a full charge after being on a tender, the cranking is bad.  I doubt it is a battery or charging system issue.

Battery cables -- are original and checked the positive side cables for signs of corrosion -- no sign at all.  

Starter relay and connections to it are all okay,  new relay and connectors last year.

One last clue - about four weeks ago, I a weird incident when truing to start they bike.  With key on, bike in neutral, and hitting the starter button -- nothing happened.  After several attempts, I pulled in the clutch (thinking it may be a problem with the neutral switch) and it started. This happened about two times over the course of four days.  Since then, it has started fine in neutral.  Current problem manifests itself regardless of neutral/clutch lever used when starting.  

Thoughts?  Is the starter toast?  Is it the bendix drive (do these starters use a bendix drive?)?  Something else.  This is an original starter on a 1983 with approx. 50,000 miles on the engine.    


Second problem:  It is hard to start for the first start of the day, and I have noticed lately that until it gets up to operating temperature it emits a good quantity of white smoke out the exhaust and wants to stall out.  I don't recall the bike doing this until recently.  Once warmed up, it runs clear and fine.  I doubt that it is an accumulation of oil getting past anything -- it happens regardless of whether I park it on the center stand or the side stand.  The smoke is on both sides, but a little more pronounced on the left side.  With the bike being hard to start when cold, this makes the starter issue worse.  This smoking a difficulty is a relatively new problem, but the valves and carbs haven't been adjusted in a while.  Is it a simple valve and carb set-up needed, or is the smoke indicative of bigger problem?  

Thanks for your input.  

k_enn

[Bob_Roller]

You need to remove the starter dis-assemble it clean it and lubricate it .

You may want to disassemble the solenoid on the starter, quite often there are high spots or peaks in the contact area, giving you minimal contact to allow the full 250-300 amps to get to the starter .

Your hard cold start may well be the starter taking too much power from the battery, not having enough voltage to properly operate the electronic ignition, below 10 volts or maybe a little lower, it usually doesn't work .

I had problems starting  the first cold start of the day, starting at around 55F., if the temperature got lower, the bike refused to start .

It ended up being a bad OEM coil, not the original gray and black coil, it was the second generation OEM red and black coil.

The primary circuit is supposed to have 1.5 ohms resistance, mine had .7 ohms, only possibility is that the insulation broke down on the primary windings, allowing them to touch .

Replaced the coil with a Dyna 'brown' coil, problem went away  bike now starts down to 19F., the coldest temp it's been left out in since the Dyna coil was installed.

Smoke on start up with the bike on the center stand, is probably oil getting into the combustion chamber .

Does it smell like oil smoke, or is it overly rich /raw fuel smell, like a carb float not shutting off with the fuel tap left in the "ON" position ?

[montmil]

As to your starter problem...  If you've never removed the starter for service or inspection, it could be as simple as giving that puppy a good cleaning. Old grease can harden and cause problems as you describe.

Not difficult to R&R the starter, so consider a close inspection and buff up.

And as to the white smoke at start up, there are a few possibilities including: 1) worn valve guides, 2) worn or broken piston oil ring. However, you say it smokes both cylinders, 3) Excess of cylinder to piston clearance.

How do the sparkle plugs look? Oiled? Have you serviced / replaced the air filter? Also, check breather hoses for possible pinched closed.

Who's next with a possible diagnosis... Guys?

Monte

[k_enn]

Further info in response to comments:

New Dyna brown, plugs and plug cables just a couple of months ago.  When the plugs were removed, they did not appear to be fouled.  Have not checked the replacement plugs yet.  As for the smoke, it is definitely both cylinders, and it is definitely white and not the blacker smoke that I usually associate with oil burning.  In the past the exhaust has smelled a little rich on start-up, but fine when running.  Does not smell rich now since it started smoking.  Less than a year on the air filter, and it still looks good and clean.  

I am leaning towards a remove and reassemble the starter.  I have a couple of days off soon, so maybe that will be a project.  Any recommended parts to get in advance (starter motor brushes, others?)?  Would removing the stater, and connecting direct to the battery be possible and productive of any useful information before tearing into it?

k_enn

[Bob_Roller]

You can try it, but I would clamp it into a vise on a workbench, it can get 'away' from you in a hurry !!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't ask how I got this info !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We had a tutorial in the FAQ section, don't know if it's still there or not .

A good high temp grease is required to lube the starter .

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/

Euromoto Electrics has all the parts to rebuild a starter .

[Justin B.]

I would first load-test the battery as it is easily done without taking anything apart.  It is not unheard of for a new battery to have a weak cell.

On your smoke issue, "white" smoke usually indicates water/moisture (sort of uncommon in an air-cooled engine but maybe there is some in the tank or carbs.  Blueish-white smoke is usually oil, and gas/over-rich/flooded is indicated by black smoke.

[Barry]

Battery- reading 12.5 volts after several hours of riding.When the engine is turning over 3,000 rpm it reads about 13.25 volts.The battery is new, and even with a full charge after being on a tender, the cranking is bad.I doubt it is a battery or charging system issue.
 

The starter may be suspect but I think you do have a charging issue.

With a fully charged battery in good condition and nothing switched on, if you measure the voltage immediately after riding the bike you should get a much higher reading than 12.5 volts. For example I just measured mine at 12.8 volts getting on for 2 hours after the engine stopped. It would have been something like 13 volts or more If I'd measured it just after shutting down. By tomorrow morning it will be down to 12.6 volts which is more like the correct voltage for a fully charged battery after a period of rest. This is the "surface charge" effect. To judge a battery by measuring the no load voltage you have to let the surface charge dissipate by allowing the battery to rest overnight. If as seems likely yours measures a fair bit less than 12.5 volts after an overnight rest then there really is something wrong with your charging system.

That there is a problem is also indicated by a reading of only 13.25 volts at 3000 RPM. It should be a minimum of 13.8 volts and ideally 14 - 14.2 Volts. It may only be a faulty voltage regulator which is at least a low cost thing to fix.  

[montmil]

With the Airheads, both Mister Clymer and Mister Haynes reference white smoke at startup as an oil problem.

Monte

[darrylri]

12.5 V is definitely not right for a charged battery.  Even if the battery is new, it may have a fault.  You should be able to get it load tested to verify that the battery is bad.  

(You cannot rely on the meter reading after charging the battery.  For such a small load as a meter it may well read correctly, and then immediately fall off when you hit the button.)

Regarding not starting in neutral -- when the bike wouldn't start, did you notice whether the neutral light was actually on?  If not, then the trans switch is going bad and you will have more trouble with it.  

K_enn, you don't say where you live (you could fill out your profile to give a clue), but if the weather has changed and this corresponds with your bike emitting the white smoke, that may just be condensation boiling out of your mufflers in the morning, like you have probably noticed with cars and trucks, which actually drip water out the tailpipe for a while when they are first started in the morning.

[tvrla]

I agree with Darryl - it's probably condensation.

Just because the cables look fine, doesn't mean they are. Even a resistance check won't tell you if there's corrosion build up between the cable and the terminals. They can corrode underneath the insualtion and you'd never know. It's easy to check them by bypassing with jumper cables.

You've gotten good advice about the starter, battery and charging system. You should be seeing higher voltages at 3000 RPM. The starter may be having problems, but low voltage is the first problem to attack. Does the starter crank normally if you jump your battery with a known good one - like the car (without motor running?).

[k_enn]

OK, so here is my plan of attack:

1.  Check to see if it is a battery issue.  Check # 1 is to try running power from a car battery that is known to be good.  (Is this ok for a 1982 with electronic ignition, or do I risk frying anything?)  Alternative, to try running power from another motorcycle battery that is fully charged.  

2.  If starter turns well, it is a battery/charging issue.

3.  If starter turns slow while doing #1, chief suspect should be the starter.  First check is to run power directly from battery to starter while starter is on the bike.  If starter turn fine, it is a cable issue.  If starter does not turn fine when running direct from the battery, it is not a cable issue and go to #4.

4.  Check starter - remove & clean, check for worn parts, and try again.

As for the white smoke, it has become prominent recently with a change of the seasons.  We are getting more moisture in the air at night, and I will see if I can detect any correlation between that and the smoke.  That might explain why there is no smoke when I start the bike during the day (even after it sits all day), after it is has been warmed up.

k_enn

[wa1udg]

You ought to test the system by VERY CAREFULLY making a connection between a car battery  minus and the bike  frame (for negative) and another from the  the + battery cable  (removed from the bike battery) to the car battery +.  With the bike battery out of the circuit you will be testing the starter wiring and starter.  If the starter spins properly you have a bike battery, or cable to bike battery problem.  Be VERY careful about NOT touching your  test + battery to cable  connection to anything metal on the bike!   ( TAPE IT UP and leave the  minus connection OFF until you do)  You don't need Cat diesel sized jumber cables to make these connections but you can't use clip leads or the leads from a "float" charger either.  Batteries can show good voltage but not be able to sustain that voltage under LOAD.  The trick in getting good electrical measurements is to know what you are measuring, and what will affect the measurement.  In electronic  circuit VOLTAGE  measurement, the drill is to use a very high resistance meter (or scope) so that its' resistance will not cause extra current flow to lower the apparent reading (load the circuit), in basic automotice applications where flakey connections are often found, a high resistance (impedance is the technical term)  meter   will draw so little current it will show a high, and perhaps expected, reading UNTIL the load is applied.   It's cheap and easy these days to make a VOLTMETER  which will NOT load circuits, but instruments to measure HIGH  CURRENT  flow of the kind found even in a motorcycle starting circuit are more expensive.  There was a time when most CARS had a zero center AMP meter on the dash.  That required thick wire to and from the meter to the generator (now an ALTERNATOR), or later, a very low value resistor in the chargng circuit across which a voltage "drop" was measured.  Both bypassed the actual starter to battery connection - putting in a system which would read THAT current would result in the meter barely moving otherwise.  Now you get a VOLT meter or an "idjut" light.  Ya can't clean much from either of those unless you understand what you are or are not measuring.  

[Barry]

k_enn

I think your testing plan is sound and there will be no risk of damage to anything as long as the connections are good and correct polarity is observed.

Some clarification on testing the battery/charging system once the starter issue is resolved one way or another.

To assess the batteries state of charge with a voltmeter you must do it after a long period of rest and expect a fully charged standard wet cell battery to read 12.65 volts. If it's a gel cell or AGM type of battery then it should read 12.8 - 12.9 volts.

The charging system voltage at 3000  RPM should be 13.8 - 14.2 volts. While your earlier reading of 13.25 volts indicates a problem the battery must be fully charged at the time for the test to be truly valid.

  

[tvrla]

Yes, it's fine to use a car battery, but best leave the car motor off in the process. The car battery doesn't need any help from it's alternator to provide enough juice as in jumping another car.

Also, disconnecting the bike battery and hooking the car battery to the bike cables is a good check, as sometimes a battery cell can short out and drain the car battery as well, rather than powering the starter. The starter will crank slowly and you'll think erroneously that the bike battery is good, when it's not.

Also, if the starter still turns over slowly with the car battery hooked to the bike's leads, disconnect one at a time and connect it to the starter. The positive lead is easy - there's a large wire coming to the starter - clamp the jumper cable there. If it now cranks well, you know it's a problem with the positive lead.

Do the same for the negative, except there is no lead since the starter grounds through its body to the engine block. So what you do there is clamp the jumper cable to the starter ear or mounting bolt. Again, if it now cranks full speed, you know there's something wonky in the ground path.

[k_enn]

Thanks to all, I will get on this this weekend.

k_enn