Return of the troubles for the first US spec 81

[montmil]

Ok... a new coil (as the one I have has a crack)...

If you're replacing the factory-installed, black and gray, Crack-O-Matic pain in the arse, your start and running problems are most likely going to disappear. Dyna Brown, by chance?

Sure wish we knew about the coil earlier. Could've saved you some time and dough.

Repeat after me: Crack-O-Matic bad.[smiley=furious3.gif] Dyna good.[smiley=beer.gif]

Monte

[chewy4x4]

Well I simply called Rick and asked for the Dyna coil and a set of wires and plugs for my 81 R65 So yes it should be a Dyna Brown. I hope that will fix the issue. I have gone crazy with this and I just want to ride. Not to mention school starts on the 18th and this is my ride.

I will be getting Ricks Alpha ignition and John's Enduralast charging system for this thing at a later date. After it runs right and my mind is a little more at rest I can start my big project with it. CAFE

Oh well I hope to have all the parts I need by Tuesday. I will keep the forum informed when this is all said and done.

[chewy4x4]

Hey Monte just for my information. How could the coil have been causing the starter not to spin whet the armature was thrown out?

How could the coil have been my problem from the start?

I was able to get the bike to crank if I sat and just quickly kept pressing the starter button for like 5-10 minuets. Mostly I would just push start the bike. But that became harder and harder recently.

[nhmaf]

I think that we'll have to wait and see what happens when you put all these bits back together first - too many items have changed at once to be able to make any good predictions/diagnoses at this stage.   Maybe when reinstalled and everything is carefully re-connected and bolted down tight, it will all work..

[montmil]

Hey Monty just for my information. How could the coil have been causing the starter not to spin whet the armature was thrown out?

How could the coil have been my problem from the start?

I was able to get the bike to crank if I sat and just quickly kept pressing the starter button for like 5-10 minuets. Mostly I would just push start the bike. But that became harder and harder recently.

Well, Chewbaca, with the starter checked out as good by the 'sperts, I'd have to scratch off the starter as a problem. I also believe your current battery is plain ol' Tango Uniform and when the new AGM battery is plugged in, will bring life to the scooter. I run Staab AGM batteries in both my R65s and they are golden. I also have a Battery Tender that gets routinely used even though the scoots live in a comfy garage... I'm always thinking there's a gremlin voltage leak... somewhere. Doesn't seem to be but I'll play the belt and suspenders deal.

You did say you observed a crack in the coil, correct? OEM coil did you say? Good odds that's why, "Mostly I would just push start the bike. But that became harder and harder recently."

All the same, plug in that new starter relay, too. Couldn't hurt. Check old for signs of corrosion. I'm still amazed the way some tiny corrosion on a spade fitting, an electrical terminal or what, can create havoc at some seemingly distant and unrelated electrical 'gizmo'. That was my issue with the stone-age OEM ceramic and wire fuses; now long gone.

Remember, with these here BMWs, it's usually a simple thing yet we often will suspect the worse. Luck to you. Probably warmer in New Braunfels than up here.

Monte... with an E

 

[tvrla]

The coil would have nothing to do with the starting problem.

Sounds to me like a better understanding of the starter circuit is in order. It's really difficult to troubleshoot something that's not understood.

So... the object of troubleshooting is to locate the defective item. How to do that in this case?

One way is to bypass parts of the circuit to see if individual items can be made to work alone.

So a good place to start is to test the starter. Sound like a good idea? Here's how it's done: Grab a set of car jumper wires.

Connect the Red clip to the hot lead (+12V) at the starter (the large nut where the battery cable attaches).

Connect the Black clip (-12V) to a mounting ear of the starter (ground).

Connect the other ends to the appropriate battery terminals.

What this has effectively done is bypassed all of the wiring, relay, switches and connections.

The starter won't turn at this point because the starter solenoid needs to be activated for that to happen. So... the way to do that is to jumper +12V to the small spade terminal on the solenoid.

Now, if the starter cranks normally, you'll know the starter and battery are good. If not, then one of them isn't. But hopefully the battery has already been tested at a battery place. And you've already discovered both of your starters are good, so it aint them!

What does that leave? Connections, switches and starter relay.

Another important piece of data - it's important to have +12V at the starter, but if a connection is bad and doesn't allow much current to flow, nothing will work right. Realize that the starter is the most taxing item in the whole electrical system. It can draw 150 amps when in use! That's why it's got such a large cable supplying it. And don't forget that the return path is just as important as the supply. What's the condition of your ground cable?

As an example, the ground can be tested by running the jumper cable from the starter mount to the negative terminal of the battery. If it now works when it didn't before, then something in that part of the circuit is wonky. You've then narrowed down the area in which to look for the fault.

The starter relay is just a remote switch. Bypass it to see if everything now works. Since a new one is coming, try the new one.

But I suspect you've got a connection or wire issue. First place I would guess is the ground cable.

[chewy4x4]

Monte I just ordered that very battery. So I will scratch that off the list very soon. And the weather is 45 degrees and raining it has been all day. And funny about the chewbaca thing as that has been my nick name my whole life (My last name is "C de Baca") or at least it was until I joined my rugby team and they realized I was the slowest guy there now they call me "Turbo".

Wirespokes Thanks for the input as I mentioned at the start of the thread I just replaced the ground and Starter wires with new items. I also fully cleaned every mounting surface pertaining to them. I had jumped the starter via the "Large Nut" and the same issue occurred.

I agree not fully understanding the system has been hampering my trouble shooting. I never did anything with the spade on the starter as I did not know what that controlled I suspected it was the input from the starter relay to the starter.

 I have even gone as far as to wire a Ford F250 starter solenoid to the starter bypassing everything but the starter and the same issue with the starter just throwing out.

I ran out of the knowledge I had on the matter and have been here since.

NHMAF I agree at this point we will just have to see if the bike is willing after the work is done. I love this bike and I just want it healthy.

[chewy4x4]

Ok so I have been thinking and I wanted to throw this one out at y'all. Why would there have been just one solid click from the starter when I pressed the starter button?

How does the starter work step by step?

Because I suspect my issue is somewhere in those steps.

[montmil]

The coil would have nothing to do with the starting problem.

Nor did I mean to imply that it did. I just believe the problem is elsewhere and it's not the starter. I note that Chewy's bike will now no longer fire even with the LeMan run and bump.

Cracked coil discovered. Battery is still my bet.

Monte

[tvrla]

How does the starter work?

Not knowing what you know or don't - here goes: The starter motor is more than just a 12V electric motor since it also has a solenoid and bendix.

A solenoid is an electrically operated lever, but in this case also acts as a relay as well. It's that smaller can-shaped thing attached to the side of the starter motor. It's got two functions - engage the drive gear to mate up with the flywheel, and route 12V to the motor. The solenoid is activated through that spade terminal on it's end.

The Bendix is the mechanism that moves the drive gear to engage with the flywheel, or pull it back out of the way.

So the solenoid is an electro magnet and when it's activated it sucks two contacts together providing a path for 12V to the starter, and also at the same time pulls in the arm of the Bendix which engages the drive gear.

The starter relay is activated by the starter button on the handlebar. When it's pushed, the starter relay then provides 12V to the spade terminal on the solenoid. When this happens, the drive gear engages and the motor spins.

Pretty simple really.

But the one item that can look good and seem to check out fine, but isn't, is the battery. If nothing else, disconnect one of the battery terminals and connect the car battery to test. Don't just jump to the bike battery, because sometimes a cell can be shorted out, and jumpering won't start it either. Get the battery out of the circuit.

[chewy4x4]

Thanks Wire. I did indeed know most or the information you posted(all save the Bendix).  But as I said I wanted to be talked to like a little helpless girl. So thanks your answer was perfect.

So here is the update.

After I sent the VALEO starter back to john I mounted the Bosch back in the bike in order to chase the issue further. The Bosch cranked the bike on the first try. That being said I had cleaned all the mating surfaces and put dielectric grease on all of the connections.

So feeling that I had fixed the issue when I received my VALEO starter back from John I mounted it in the bike and figured it would work. WRONG. Shit. Well out came the VALEO again and the Bosch went back in (oh on a side note I can now change a starter in an Airhead faster than anyone out here....FACT). The Bosch started the bike just fine this morning and this afternoon and numerous times throughout the day. I am still waiting on my new coil plugs and wires. But that is just icing.

I can not conclude anything other than this... The VALEO starter is the problem. I know John says its fine but obviously it is not as a starter that has a greater draw can crank the bike just fine. I can only conclude that there is a messed up connection in the VALEO.

It appears that the starter solenoid can only preform one of its tasks at a time it engages the Bendix just fine but does not spin. When I bridged the terminals yesterday I heard the spin but the armature was not thrown out. I an indeed angry that I now have a $300 starter that doesn't work but what can I do. I guess I will copy this post to John but I am way out of warranty so I think I am screwed.

Any thoughts Y'all?

Oh yeah this was all on the battery that was deemed no good. It still reads a bit low but hell now it can sit while I use the sealed new battery.

[montmil]

Any thoughts Y'all?

.

I think I recall that the Valeo is a product of France. French Partisans are messing with your German bike.

Chewy, this entire episode can be logged as tuition for your continuing education in the mysteries of motorcycles. You now possess additional technical skills that you might be able to share with others less fortunate than you.

Ride on, buddy. Texas awaits.

Monte

[chewy4x4]

Monte you are very correct. Viva Tejas. I have learned more than I could have ever wanted to know. I have enjoyed every frustrating moment of it

To recap so those searching in the forum can know what has been done.

1. MOST IMPORTANT I have cleaned using a scotch brite pad and brake parts cleaner, all or the contacts in the starting, charging and grounding circuits on this bike. Including the mating surface from the block to the starter. I then coated all these contacts in a THIN film of dielectric grease.

2. I have replaced both the Starting cable and grounding cable using HICAP copper wires from here. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150436554508&viewitem=

3. I have Gained complete knowledge about the removal and installation of the Air box, Starter and the Diode board.

4. I have replaced the Battery with this Staab battery.http://www.staabbattery.com/product/sla-12/UB12220-V.html

5. I have Upgraded the Diode board grounding and positive using 6 gauge wire and the instructions from Evolution Cycles. I tried to do the AC wires but the spade connectors I could get were all to big and kept coming off. http://www.evolutioncycles.com/airhead_ideas.htm

6. I preformed a spline lube and then MADE SURE to balance the swing arm an torque the nuts correctly Also I did have to get a 27mm socket I purchased a craftsman and then had to grind down its lip. I followed these instructions. http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/spline/

7. I replaced the bowl and choke gaskets with REAL GASKETS nitrile gaskets. A real quality product. http://www.realgaskets.com/files/motorcycle.htm

8. I cleaned (inside and out) and adjusted both carburetors.

9. I preformed a valve adjustment thanks to this web site and my factory service manual. Thanks to E-classic bikes. http://www.e-classicbike.com/

10. I have Sanded painted and Mounted a San Jose fork brace on the R65 and I can say two things about it one I love wire wheels but my skin hates them and two THIS BRACE MAKES A VERY NOTICABLE DIFFERENCE IN THE HANDLEING OF THIS BIKE.

11. I have removed my pulse air system following these instructions and purchasing from BMW all of the recommended parts. http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/pulse-air/

12. I have replaced my Headlight with a Sylvania Silver Star H4 light. http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProducts/AutomotiveLighting/HighPerformance/Silverstar/

13. I broke the welds on the right front turn signal stem and fixed it using this LOCKTITE EPOXY. I plan to permanently fix this issue by drilling two wholes in the spot welds and taping to small screws in to them.  http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13/6/epxy_5min/overview/Loctite-Epoxy-Instant-Mix-5-Minute.htm

14. I cleaned and replenished all of the plastic and rubber on this bike including the crankcase vent hose and the internal trumpets in the air box using 303 AEROSPACE PROTECTANT. It has given all of the rubber and plastic on this bike a new lease on life. IT WORKS. http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/65/303-aerospace-protectant.cfm

15. I have mounted a new brown DYNA coil along with new NGK plugs and NGK wires. from Rick at Motorrad Elektrik. http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm


And Finally I can not say that the products I have received from EuroMotoelectrics have worked out for me as everyone can see from this thread they have not BUT I will say that John has the best customer service I have ever experienced. I trust John and his company but now more than ever I don't trust the FRENCH

[Bob_Roller]

Is there a difference in the number of teeth on the starter gear of each starter, just a wild thought !!!

[chewy4x4]

To be honest Bob in my frustration I never counted them myself. However John assured me that The valeo has the right amount of teeth I did ask when he had it. I'll check if I ever pull the BOSCH out again. The issue with the starter just became so aggravating I couldn't stand it. I just hope I can figure it out. I think I might just disassemble the VALEO to check things out. It will be a good learning experience as well.