Return of the troubles for the first US spec 81

[chewy4x4]

Hello again Gentleman and Ladies (in case you are here).
OK so I have the first US spec 81 r65 and for the last 1.5 years it has been a 3-4 times a week commuter. She now has 9000 miles on her up from the 4500(original) when I first got her. I have had a bit of trouble with the 65 not cranking at all. It has been like this for a few months now, but I have only now been able to put her down to work on her.

When I first started having these problems I showed up her asking for help and received great advice. I have replaced the starter with the valeo one offered from EuroMotoElectric and I replaced the starter WIRE and ground with a new one as I found mine to be corroded under the sheathing. I have also adjusted the valves.  That worked for a while but now the same problem is back.

HELP!!!!!!

OK here's what happens. I have the bike on a float charger at all times when parked at home it sits at 12.3V (Also its not the battery as this same issue exists when I am being jumped.) So Key in the ignition. Turn to run. Transmission in neutral. Clutch held. Press start button. Power is sent from the start button to the relay. The relay functions perfectly and power is then sent to the starter relay. The starter relay functions perfectly as well and the armature jumps forward. CLICK. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The starter does not spin. WTF.

I am truly puzzled no annoyed by this issue. Can the R65 gods that roam this forum please grace this thread with your presence and give me guidance in this matter. I don't want to be buying a new starter every 9 months as that will get just a little bit expensive. Please help if you can.

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

You might call EuroMotoElectric and see what they suggest.  If the armature is moving forward, but nothing else, it could be a defective starter.

I'm sorry, but that is all I have to offer.   :-/

[Barry]

I have the bike on a float charger at all times when parked at home it sits at 12.3V  

I know you say it's not the battery and it does sound like you have a problem with the starter but If your voltage measurement is accurate 12.3 volts is much too low for a float charge and would only keep the battery at 50% charge.

Float chargers should typically charge at around 13.4 Volts.

[Bob_Roller]

Have the leads of a multimeter connected to the battery posts after it's been on charge overnight, then check the voltage when the start button is depressed .

It shouldn't drop below 10.5 volts while operating the starter .

If you have a repair shop near you that works on starters and generators, see if they will test it, usually it's a no charge for most shops .

Just for informational purposes, what brand of battery do you have and how old is it ?

Is it a sealed, or serviceable type ?

[chewy4x4]

Ok Im going to pull the starter and the battery and have them bench tested at my local Aprila shop as they are the only people I have seen with a race R90S in the shop. and I figgure if they can work on that they can help with my little 65. Thanks to all of you. Oh and Bob and Rob you were to of the people I had in mind when I asked for help so thanks.

[chewy4x4]

Also if the starter is bad is the Super Nippondenso one better than the Valeo?

[chewy4x4]

OK just went and and checked the battery and it sits at 12.54 off the Battery MAINTAINER and 12.68 on. The Maintainer says it is a 12v DC out put at 1.5 amps. The battery drops to about 11.36 when I hit the start button. Again it is not cranking so I don't know if that is how low it would drop if it was but I am still convinced that my battery is fine it is a battery that had acid added to it then it was charged. The caps on the ports to the cells wont come out so I don't think it is serviceable. But I am not good with batteries I have never had a vehicle with a serviceable battery. I guess you need to be older than 27 to have more experiance with those.

[Bob_Roller]

Why did you replace the original Bosch starter with the Valeo ?

The only negative comments I have heard about the Valeo starters, is that they have the field coils secured with adhesive instead of threaded fasteners .

There have been reports of the adhesive failing and having the field coils jam the starter .

I don't know how common of a problem it is with the starters, the problem may have been blown out of proportion with real life experience .

I have the ninth bike off of the production line for the '81 model year, serial number 6385009, the only problem I've had with the original starter, was that it needed a good cleaning and lubrication about six years ago, the bike is just about ready to turn over 85,000 miles (140,000km) .

[chewy4x4]

It was originally suggested that my Bosch was bad as it was having a lot of trouble starting the bike. I will put the old bosh back on the bike and see if that helps but I don't have high hopes. That will be later tonight so I will update on that one in the AM. Unless my 2 year old takes an extra long nap this ava. We will see.

[Bob_Roller]

The starter gets it's ground through contact with the engine case .

Is there any paint, sealant or corrosion where the bare metal of both parts contact each other, including the two bolts that hold the starter on ?

[chewy4x4]

Dont know Ill check and Ill clean them.

[Ed Miller]

Press start button. Power is sent from the start button to the relay. The relay functions perfectly and power is then sent to the starter relay. The starter relay functions perfectly as well and the armature jumps forward. CLICK. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The starter does not spin.

The starter relay, right under the gas tank, will click when you hit the starter button.  Are you sure that the armature down on the starter itself is clicking?  My bike has a corroded blade connection (that I still haven't cleaned up/replaced!) at the starter that comes from the starter relay, and when it won't pass enough current the under tank relay will click, but the starter won't turn.  If I jump the terminals at the starter (I used a screw driver) it will turn over.  I need to replace the female blade connector one of these days.

[nhmaf]

My suspicion is also at the starter solenoid wire connection and/or ground connection at the starter.  

IT also sounds like your battery might not be fully up to snuff - if the starter motor seems to be fine.   The wet cell battery on my Kawasaki croaked on me this autumn all of a sudden after being seemingly fine all summer long. Even after leaving it on a battery tender for a day, the voltage would measure  12.8V at rest and seemed OK until one put the key in and turned the ignition on.  Sometimes the dash and idiot lights would remain lit and the starter relay would chatter slightly, but pressing the start button would drop everything and go dark.    Turn key off, wait 10 minutes, and try again - lights usually (but not always) would come back on, but any attempt to draw more than about 250 milliamps would cause the battery voltage to drop to 9 volts or so and no juice.    Replaced battery with new sealed AGM battery and all was well again.   Maybe your friendly shop can load test your battery to see if it really maintains proper voltage while providing starting current.

The Valeo starters draw less current than the Bosch units, and are slightly lighter - I think that they were fitted to all the airheads beginning in the mid 80s.   The Nippondenso starter motor is THE ULTIMATE starter motor for airheads - it was originally used on Nissan truck engines and is stronger and more efficient, but it is also MUCH more expensive - though I believe Motorrad Elektrik has these, too.

[chewy4x4]

Ok so John at euromoto is awsome after a year he agreed to check out my starter for free......and he found nothing wrong.

OK so I cleaned the contact points between the starter and the bike and I mounted up the VALeo and click nothing. I know the armature is going out but it wont spin. I then mounted the old Bosch and it cranked the bike. What gives. I can check the spade connector but I assume it is fine as the Bosch cranked. I didn't start the bike as I have it in pieces but it cranked.

So here I am again asking the same question what the hell do I check now.

I will say that I have used the time effectively preforming a spline lube and cleaning up the carbs. I didnt really clean them out but I did replace the choke and bowl gaskets with silicone ones.

Also could the diode board be causing any of these issues? Lets assume I am a dumbass and cant trouble shoot any thing myself with out messing things up further. What do I need to check and how should I check it. Again just assume I am a 16y/o little girl who cant fend for myself. because at this point thats how I feel.

[chewy4x4]

Ok I orderd an AGM battery, a new coil (as the one I have has a crack), along with some new wires and plugs. I have, as stated above, replaced the power and earth cables and I have cleaned the mating surface and bolts for the starter. John at euromoto is sending my VALEO starter back with a clean bill of health and he is also sending me a new starter relay(just in case) free of charge I might add John is a really stand up guy. I will clean the spade conector at the starter and I will give it a light coating of dielectric grease.

I think that is all I can do to the electrical system for the starter. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.