Clutch questions...

[azcycle]

I've got a couple questions about the clutch/shifting on my 81.

1) When the bike is cold, shifting is sometimes a bit of a bear, especially going down to 1st from 2nd gear. I occasionally get a false neutral between 1st and 2nd because it takes a bit of effort to get it into first as I'm downshifting, coming to a stop. A very noticeable "CLACK" sound. I'm not familiar with how these bikes SHOULD feel, so I'm not sure if this is normal. Now, when the bike is warm, shifting seems to improve greatly.

2) When clutch pulled in but in 1st gear... if I roll the bike back and forth, I can feel a TINY bit of engagement from the transmission. It's almost like the clutch is 98% engaged but still feel a bit of gear... not enough to move the bike at all if I rev the engine.  When downshifting to a stop, dropping into first with the clutch fully engaged, I still "feel" the bike go into first with a very small "hum/whine" sound. Is this normal, or with clutch engaged should it be like the bike was in neutral?  

1 and 2 might be related, and I need to adjust the clutch so there is NO engagement at all.

3) My bike has a noticeable sewing machine clatter from the timing chain, and I know it needs to be fixed. However, yesterday when I first started it up, I noticed something strange. The clatter I heard yesterday was NOT coming from the timing chain, BUT rather the transmission/clutch area.  In neutral, I pulled in the clutch, and the clatter went away completely. Released the clutch, and a noticeable clatter from the transmission/clutch area.  Now, once I began riding, the timing chain clatter started and I couldn't hear the transmission/clutch sound any longer.

I haven't drained/replaced the transmission fluid, but I intend to do that soon. What type of fluid do I need to use, and how much?

Any thoughts?

[Bob_Roller]

From your description of the transmission, it all pretty much sounds like normal operation, about the only thing I can say that maybe a slight problem, is if the transmission input splines are dry, this may be causing some problem .

At least my transmission, doesn't like to be shifted into 1st gear, until you are stopped, or moving at a slow speed .

Your clutch cable may need some small adjustment, to get it correctly adjusted .

These transmissions will make  some unusual noises compared to other makes of bikes when in neutral with the engine running .


For transmission oil, a good brand of GL4/GL5 gear oil will work, I'm not a fan of synthetic oils in the R65, I haven't had particularly good experiences with it .

You'll need one quart bottle of oil for the transmission, I think the capacity is 900 ml .

[Mike V]

Graeme,
Let me give some opinions on what you describe since I have experienced some of the same on my larger bike. Hopefully others will chime in to agree or disagree. First of all; be sure you are at a very low speed when downshifting into first gear, the turning rate ratio of lower gears are much increased in regards to your engine speed or rpm. You may want to blip the throttle to get the engine speed more synchronized with the faster turning low gears. The clatter you describe when the bike is idling with the clutch released makes me a little suspect in the condition of your transmission and the output shaft bearing or related transmission bearings. You may be experiencing some failure here. I would strongly suggest draining your transmission fluid and doing a very close inspection of the drain plug magnet and the color and condition of your transmission fluid. If it is milky looking or emulsified, you may have water contamination. That's a bad thing.  Check the condition of your speedo cable boot where it attaches the transmission. A small paste residue on your magnetic plug is normal, but if you see or feel any metallic particles in-between your fingers you may need some possible transmission work. Photograph the magnet and fluid - let us look at it. Refill the transmission with good quality hypoid (I use BMW GL5 80w90) ride the bike for 50 or 100 miles and have another look at your magnetic drain plug. I doubt what you're experiencing is a clutch problem if the shifting through the rest of the gears is acceptable. Just my thoughts. Wait for some other replies and let us know what you find.

Here are some ugly pictures of my transmission rebuild on my /7 due to water contamination from a faulty boot that I neglected. Notice my drain plug? Looks like a metallic porcupine. I now pay special attention to this speedo boot and NEVER pressure wash your bike. Good luck.

http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq8/gruntyman66/78%20R100%20Trans%20Repair%205-09/

[azcycle]

Thanks to both of you.  Mike, I'll let you know the condition of the tranny fluid this weekend, when I change it.  To be honest, this bike doesn't even HAVE a speedo cable (no gauges at all) so the hole into the transmission where it goes is open.  I've certainly avoided getting water anywhere near it because I know it would be bad.  But how my father-in-law stored the bike is unknown. I'm pretty sure he kept it in a covered area most of the time, but there is a chance it sat outside in the rain occasionally, which means there might be some water contamination.

Keeping fingers crossed everything is okay.  

I know this is a dumb question, but I don't have a repair manual.  Where is the fill opening for the transmission fluid/gear oil?

Finally, can I use the same hypoid 80w90 gear oil for the final drive, too?

[Bob_Roller]

There is an Allen head plug on the left side of the transmission around the shift linkage, remove it, then fill until the oil comes out of the opening .

The same oil is used in the transmission, shaft housing and final drive .

To do all three, you need 2 quarts of oil, you'll probably have about half of a bottle left over .

You really need to get that opening closed off, you can use the rubber boot that covers the speedometer cable, place a bolt or something similar into the opening on top, then apply some sealant .

There also is a bolt on the side of the 'spigot' that the boot goes over, you need to get a bolt in there as well, then cover with sealant .

[Mike V]

Graeme, Just to echo Bob's reply, I think the tranny takes 800cc, go slow, when the fluid starts to over-run the fill hole as Bob has explained, you're done. Just don't dump an entire liter in there, you'll have a mess to clean up. And don't forget to install the drain plugs with new washers first...don't ask how I know this.

I believe the swing arm (drive shaft) housing will take ±150cc and the final drive will take ±350cc.  You may have an inspection bolt in the rear of your final drive, if you do - remove it and when the fluid starts to run out, you're done.  DON'T over-fill. And DON'T over-tighten the fill and drain plugs. Just snug not to leak. Follow Bob's advice.

Fatal error having that cable bore open. Let's all say a silent prayer and hope you get lucky.  You need to get that resolved and closed off sooner than later.

I'll check back in after the weekend, leaving for the central valley to visit dear old mom later this evening.

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

This is what I use to fill my transmission, drive shaft and final drive.

I inherited it from my dad, who got it from who knows where.  It took me a while, but I found a source or two online.



This image is from http://automotive.hardwarestore.com/90-547-oilers/goldenrod-flex-spout-oiler-664528.aspx


But Tractor Supply also has one, but their picture is lousy, so I don't know what it looks like.  But many of us have a T.S. store near them, so I mention it.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/vehicle-maintenance-accessories/oil-gas-filters/vehicle-lubricants-oil/lubricating-equipment/313-oil-can-metal-32-oz-15-in-flex-spout-3959583


For the transmission it is easy, just pump until the oil gets to the bottom of the hole.

For the drive shaft housing, I used a measuring cup and I counted the number of pumps it took to reach 150cc, and wrote it down in my notes.

Then I did the same for the final drive.


But they are certainly cheap enough, that I'll bet some of the more tight-fisted of us would have no problem buying one.  


Oh, and don't try to downshift into first until you are at a slow walking speed.  This is 1-2 MPH.

[Mike V]

Rob,

Brilliant idea!!!!  Gotta get one of those.

[azcycle]

Well I couldn't wait until tomorrow so I drained the transmission tonight.  Good news, I think.  The gear oil was thick and dark... a bit old, but not contaminated.  The drain plug had quite a ball of gritty sludge attached to it, but I only found one tiny sliver of metal that was more than dust.  What I did find, though... was half a dozen small slivers/fragments (very small) of some sort of bright orange material. Looked almost painted?  Not rust... very bright orange and I don't think it was metal. Smaller than pin-heads... I couldn't even get clear photos. Any ideas? So I *think* everything is good.

To fill the shaft drive housing, I see two bolts just on the final drive side of the swingarm/driveshaft area, one on top, and one on the bottom. I assume these are the fill/drain holes for the drive shaft. I put 150cc's of gear oil in there, yes?

Transmission and final drive fill/drain bolts are easy to find. I've got a very large syringe that I use to fill up my mountain bike forks, so I know how much fluid to put in.

Thanks for the advice everyone!  Any additional thoughts are welcome...

[nhmaf]

Hmmm, not sure what those orange bits could be - can you post photos?   I suspect maybe they could be a piece of a seal, but I don't recall there being any orange-colored seals in the transmission, and I can't remember any orange plastic bits.


There is a fill bolt and drain bolt for the swingarm/driveshaft, and there is a filler bolt, drain bolt, and VENT bolt on the final drive itself.   The fill bolt on the swingarm/driveshaft is on top right were the silver final drive bolts onto the black painted metal swingarm, and its corresponding drain hole is directly underneath.     One drains the oil out of the swingarm from the bottom hole, and when filling, the proper amount if about 150cc - the  thing I do is to just add about this amount, and check with a small screwdriver tip after giving the oil a chance to settle in there.  Sticking the screwdriver tip straight down from the top into the fill hole, it will come to rest inside on top of the driveshaft.   With the bike on its centerstand, you want the screwdriver tip to have ~ 2mm of oil covering its blade tip - this is the right amount.

For the final drive, obviously one drains the oil out the bottom-most bolt.   You can fill the final drive from the fill/check bolt hole that is on the back edge (around 9 o'clock position when facing rear drive from the right side) until the oil reaches the bottom threads - OR-  simply leave this bolt/hole open and remove the top VENT cap and pour the oil in from above.  The same criteria for "full" applies.  The VENT cap's threads can get corroded if the vent hasn't been removed and cleaned out in a long time, so be careful - these often end up getting stripped out and heli-coiled.  The vent itself should look like a button-head mushroom with some small holes under the cap (which often get clogged with dirt).   Once a year or so I remove mine and blow out the holes with some WD-40 or general cleaner - make sure air/cleaner fluid can get from inside the VENT cap to the outside.

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

Also be very careful with the swingarm fill/drain plugs.  It is VERY easy to strip these, esp. if you are trying to stop a pesky leak...


Check out pages 20 & 21 in the Owners Manual PDF:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=R65OwnersManual_001.pdf


If you want to download this file, go here:
http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1271881232

[montmil]

Love the vintage oiler, Rob.

Here's another oil filler option I found at O'Rielly Auto Parts for around five bucks.

Features:
•The reservoir has a snap on top, is marked in ounces, milliliters, and half-pints, and the handle is a blessing. Add your lube at the bench and carry the filler to the bike.

•The blue part is a twist-to-open/close valve with a metal mesh strainer. When you think you're getting close to the tranny fill, it's easy to pinch off the flow and avoid a potential Exxon Valdez or recent the BP issue.

•The business end fits the BMW transmission filler hole perfectly! The stopper is most helpful.

I use this oil filler on the bikes and cars/truck. One of those deals that you wonder how you got along without it. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Monte

[nhmaf]

I have the same funnel thing which Monte has - it is handy, but with mine at least if one leaves the screen in place at the bottom of the  reservoir it takes a loooooooooooooooooooong time for that 90W oil to dribble out!
Patience, patience..

[montmil]

I have the same funnel thing which Monte has - it is handy, but with mine at least if one leaves the screen in place at the bottom of the  reservoir it takes a loooooooooooooooooooong time for that 90W oil to dribble out!
Patience, patience..

I bungee the reservoir to the bike. While the gear lube goes in, I'm multi tasking on something else... there's always something else.

Monte

[azcycle]

Changed all the gear oil out and replaced with nice, fresh juice.  Just took her for a spin up the  local twisties... 50-miles round-trip up and down Mt Lemmon.  Went from 95 degrees here at the house to 75 degrees and pine trees at the top... 9000 feet.  

Shifting was noticeably better!  I'll keep an eye on the drain plug and see if I can catch any more fragments of that strange orange stuff, and will let you all know.

Thanks for the help.