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Author Topic: midrange powerloss ghost update  (Read 2352 times)

clouseau

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midrange powerloss ghost update
« on: June 17, 2009, 11:14:19 PM »
Still battling with this loss of power in the midrange...
The exhaust is NOT stock.
Wouldn't that indicate a change needed in the needle jets size?
To clarify, I am not referring to the main jets.  Those have not been replaced. Only the needle jets have been replaced to stock size.

Offline nhmaf

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 12:50:03 AM »
I forget from your earlier thread - you replaced the needle jets to stock parts, and I assume, the jet needles as well?  Have you tried raising the needles 1 notch?   This might also require a bit of fine tuning of the air mixture screw on the bottom of the carbs, but maybe not.

What is the aftermarket exhaust system (mfg/model)?  Is it still a 2-into-2 system or 2-into-1?  Crossover pipes up front and behind the centerstand, or???    Lastly, are you using stock airfilter enclosure/filter or K&N filter or the dreaded "pod filters", or ??

While I don't profess to be expert in this area, I have a little experience.  IF you are not showing signs of running too lean from the inspection of new plugs put into it and run in a bit, I'd first look at raising the needle position on these carbs a notch before changing main jet size.  But, that's my $.02 and is probably worth that much.
Even if the exhaust system is LESS restrictive than stock (maybe yes, maybe no) if the incoming air/fuel mixture doesn't keep up with the outflow (like a pump) then the incoming mixture is the restriction.  But, if you've got the incoming air supply flow improved to keep up with the exhaust outflow but don't have enough fuel (running lean), then you've got to look into jetting changes.

What I think can throw everything into a tailspin is that some air intake filers, like the "pod filters" fitted to some of these CV carbs, result in extra airflow at lower roadspeeds, but actually have less airflow compared to the "snorkel"  box of the 80s era bikes at higher speeds, resulting in the bike actually running too rich at 100 km/h  where it was running lean at 20 k/h - this is where making adjustments becomes a magic balancing act that I personally try to avoid.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

clouseau

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 10:24:34 AM »
Yep, the carbs are back to stock needle jets and jet needles.  I didn't change the main jets which are 145.  I'm going to call Bing and see what the stock size is for 64/32/325. That may be an indication of mods done by previous owner.

Unfortunately, there are no markings on these aftermarket mufflers which may indicate cheapos.  When I raise the needle to #4, it runs much better, but not perfect.
The air filter is K&N in the stock air box.

I emailed the person I bought it from in the hopes that he can offer insight into possible carb mods.  Hopefully he gets back...

Offline Barry

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 11:59:29 AM »
Haynes manual says the following for a 64/32/325  (Uk model in brackets):-

Mains 145   (148)

Needle jet 2.66  (2.64)

Needle 46-241   (46-241)

Needle position 3rd clip   (4th clip)

Idle jet 40   (45)

Pilot mixture screw turns out  3/4     (1/2)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 12:02:56 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

clouseau

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 12:03:24 PM »
Thanks Barry.

Offline montmil

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 12:08:56 PM »
I just noticed something in your latest post...

The 32mm Bing CV carbs spec'ed for the 1982 R65LS are 64/32/303-LH and 64/32/304-RH. If you're running the 325/326 models, those carbs are the ones fitted to 1983 & 84 LS models and the 1981-82 R65 non-LS bike.

Here's some info about these carbs from the Clymer manual:

303/304 Bing CV 1982 R65LS
Main jet      145
Needle jet   2.66
Needle jet# 46-241
Idle jet        45

325/326 Bing CV  1981-82 R65
Main jet       145
Needle jet    2.66
Needle jet#  46-241
Idle jet         40

335/336 Bing CV  1983-84 R65LS
Main jet       135
Needle jet    2.64
Needle jet#  46-242
Idle jet         40

Hope this helps rather than muddy the waters even more for you.

Monte


Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline nhmaf

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 10:35:28 AM »
SUPPOSEDLY, the KN filters let more air flow in, so in theory, you might be in a situation where a little more fuel might be helpful.  This might be a step up in main jet size or maybe just richening up the mixture a little with  the mixture screw would help some.   Hard to tell without being there to diagnose..  Let us know what the Bing people suggest!
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

clouseau

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 02:51:11 PM »
The fellas at Bing recommended one size up for sure on the needle jets, which I ordered.  
If this doesn't do the trick the boys at Angel City Cycle are gonna have an R65LS on their hands to tinker with. Going on 3 months of not riding, I'm just ready to get back in the saddle...

Offline jusgus

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 10:39:00 PM »
I have encountered that problem and I use the side of my boot to tap on the carb bodies in turn while ridding to help the floats to keep up.  It seems to work but the problem I have is around 4000+ rpms and it is problematic as to when it occurs.  I think it may have to do with 10% alcohol  in the gas???

Offline nhmaf

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 10:58:24 PM »
IF your floats were marginal, the ethanol may have accelerated their demise.  Have you taken the bowls off to see if you've got tiny bits of "stuff" flaoting around down there?   The ethanol tends to accelerate the deterioration of the inside of rubber fuel lines - there are several types of lines rated for alcohol that will not break down that we'll all be switching to over time, I'm sure.   My bike hasn't exhibited any midrange power issues and we've had ethanol in our fuel for over a year now, so I don't believe that it is just the ethanol itself (which does have reduced chemical energy content) causing an issue.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

clouseau

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 10:54:38 AM »
Floats are brand spanking new.
I adjusted my timing (it was off) and that helped.  The upsized needle jet from Bing did NOTHING. Probably since my main jet is stock.
The midrange loss is now specifically between 4-5K.  Thankfully the bike is ride-able but that midrange is where I like to ride. Going to check the valve clearances...
I'm also wondering if my spark is not adequate.

Offline nhmaf

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 02:11:25 PM »
I was responding on the float thing to jusgus -

Unless you are observing erratic firing at other RPMs and not just between 4K - 5K, I'd say that your ignition system is not the cause of this.   I would have thought that Bing would have sold you the next size up main jets as well, as that is what I am thinking it needs (but again I don't claim to be a carb wizard).

It's always good to make sure the valve clearances are where they ought to be, periodically.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Justin B.

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 02:25:48 PM »
You adjusted the timing but did you verify that the advance mechanism was/is working correctly?
Justin B.

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clouseau

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 07:15:08 PM »
FIXED!!
I checked the valve clearances this morn (all good).
Switched to a BMW air filter and it ran a bit better.
I got to thinking about how adjusting the timing made a huge difference, so I moved the bean can a bit farther (counter clockwise) and flat spot is gone and I'm back on the road!
Thanks everyone for all of your help. I couldn't have done it without.
I'll be sure to drum up some more issues to post.  :)

Offline nhmaf

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Re: midrange powerloss ghost update
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 07:20:54 PM »
I am happy for you, but I guess that I am confused as you indicated that you had corrected the timing before.  Do you have the "Z" mark centered in the timing window hole at ~ 3500 RPM?,,, that's right around where it should be..
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours