The member photo gallery is now integrated and live!!  All user albums and pictures have been ported from old gallery.


To register send an e-mail to admin@bmwr65.org and provide your location and desired user name.

Author Topic: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)  (Read 1131 times)

VaSteve

  • Guest
Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« on: November 28, 2008, 03:38:06 PM »
I've had my bike about 2 years.   For these entire time, I have been chasing the hanging revs around 4000 rpm when cruising.   I'm sure you know the one, it revs up OK, but when cruising in 3rd or 4th gear at around 4000 when you hit the gas, it stumbles and eventually fights me until it takes off at like 5000 rpm.  What a PITA.

I cleaned the carbs really good once and that seemed to fix it.  I recently took the carbs off and cleaned them again and put in new parts (O rings, diaphragms, etc - not floats).  When I put it back together, I didn't synch the carbs properly (I know there's some kind of DIY manometer...where can I find it?) and the bike ran sub par.  At the shop in June, they tweaked it by ear, but today (at 30 degrees outside) it just runs terrible.  I'm hesitant to take the carbs off and clean them again, because I'm afraid they'll be out of synch again so I want to have the proper manometer or equivalent handy.  My brother suggested that the needles might be worn/dragging so that they are not pulling up when the diaphragm does.  

eh, I'm at a loss.  Suggest something for me.  It's so irritating, I almost never get to ride and when I do, it's miserable.  :(

VaSteve

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2008, 04:27:55 PM »
LOL, looks like I posted about this before.  ::)

http://suraklyn.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1163788976/6#6

not-so-fast-ed

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 06:51:08 PM »
Hi Steve,

I'm not much help in troubleshooting, but here's a link to the cheap monometer:

http://www.airheads.org/content/view/183/98/

Ed

Allred

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2008, 12:47:28 PM »
I'm not a mechanic, but I do a lot of my own work, and the BING carbs are really pretty simple.  So......

I don't think it is likely that a needle is "hanging up", (unless you forgot to attache the  the "C" clip  :o )  as they are anchored pretty firmly to the piston.  

Do a bit of testing to help steer you in the right direction.  Get the bike started, and take a short ride to get it warmed up a bit, until it runs as well as it can without choke on.  After warm up, stop the motor as soon as possible during or very shortly after the problem shows itself.  Most accurate way to get a plug reading is kill motor by letting it run out of fuel while it is mis-behaving.  After motor shut off,  pull the spark plugs and "read" their color and condition.  Wet, grimy black and sooty tip around electrodes and insulators?  to much fuel, motor is drowning and running poorly from too rich condition when throttle is opened.   Plugs dry and white, motor is starved for fuel from lean condition.  Proper mixture should leave plugs dry with a medium grey brown color, not wet or black, not white.  

Most frequent contributor to lean/rich problems is improper float setting, or faulty float.  Check that first.

Less commoon, needles & needle jets do wear over time, many thousands of miles, as they vibrate against each other, needles tending to get thinner, needle jets get wider, and thus carb runs richer in mid-range.  (Needles and needle jets can be changed.)

However, from your description of symtoms, I would suspect and search for a too lean condition during transition from cruising throttle to more power throttle.  Too lean during  "throttle on" could be from float(s) set at too low, resulting in fuel level in float bowls is at to low a level.

I would also suggest checking the rate of fuel flow through the float needle jet.  I once found a bit of rubber from the fuel line upstream float needle, that obsructed full fuel flow, only noticable at sustained high throttle when fuel flow into the float bowl was restricted enough to not keep up with the demand of the motor at high rpm & open throttle.

Or perhaps there are partial obstructions in the emulsion tube(s) that mix fuel and air upstream from the main jet, below the needle jet.  

Check for air leaks between carb & motor.  Worn throttle shaft "O" ring, bad connector hoses, loose hose clamps, etc, can also cause a lean condition.

I would also take a look at the enrichment circuit (choke) to insure unwanted extra fuel not getting into the motor via a bad gasket, etc, there.

In summary, I think your difficulty is a restriction(s) in the carb fuel flow.  Get a carb diagram, Google Bing Agency and get their carb rebuild book, then trace the fuel paths through the carbs understand where obstructions might have occured from foreign matter to residue build up.  

Carbs really aren't that complicated.  And, like an old mechanic told me once, "they're made from metal, rubber, and plastic.  They can't think!  If everything is clean and set right, they have to work"

Another smart old buy said "carburetor is a foreign word, that means "don't touch"".  At least not until you know that compression, timing, and valve adjustment are all proper, and that the ignition electrical system is working properly.

Finally, don't worry to much about balance, until you have checked/solved the fuel supply problem.  If you have completely clean carbs, before you start the motor, be sure that both idle air mixture srews are set about equally about 1/2 to 3/4 turns out from closed.  Then make sure the throttle cables have a couple of milimeters free play when pulled up at their brackets on the butterfly valve rod, such and finally make sure the idle speed adjustment is such that both butterfly valves are full closed when the twist grip is completely off throttle.  

This should give you a good enough balance setting to get the motor started, then you can further improve the balance by individually and slowly, opening/closing the air mixture screws about 1/8 of a turn at a time, then listening for motor to stablize at best-smoothest idle, repeat for other carb cylinder.  When air mixture adjustments are best they can be, tweak each carb's idle speed screw until motor runs smoothly at about 1,000 rpm or so.  Small adjustments are best, then wait for motor to stabilize.  This should get you a good enough balance to ride to the shop, where they can put the meter on if they have to.  More likely they'll just "eye-ball" it, and listen, trying to insure that the carb's butterfly valves both open at the same time, and at the same rate, so that motor not only runs smoothly when idling, but also as throttle calls for carbs to open up.  That's all the balancing does.  Not exactly rocket science.



Hope this helps.   Good Luck!    [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

tagordon

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2008, 09:00:08 PM »
Your issue is common with the R65.
You did not mention ever having changed the needle position.
Try moving the clip down one notch.
This will change the transition point, and has been reported to solve the exact problem you are referring to.
I would not worry too much about the sync and balance untill you get rid of the flat spot.
Take a look at the needle while you are changing the clip position.
The needles and their jets rarely get worn, worth a look while you are there.

VaSteve

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2008, 10:11:20 PM »
Thanks guys.  It's supposed to be nasty and rainy tomorrow so I don't know when I'll get to mess with it, but I will report back.

Allred, I know the floats are old.  I have also have that issue of leaking from the right one periodically...it's been on my eternal list of things to go.  

tagordon... No, I have never moved the needle position.  I cleaned them up and put on new o-rings and such, but put it back together as I found it.  


Offline Semper Gumby

  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 2173
  • Dances with cow!
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 10:34:22 AM »
That sounds like a mid-range stumble.  I would try moving the needles up or down one notch.  Put in a new set of plugs and get the bike running in the stumble range.  Cut the bike with the kill switch pull over and right there pull out the plugs and see if they are rich or lean.  

If rich (sooty) move the needle on that side down one notch.
If lean (clean white) move the needle on that side up one notch.

Try again.

(good luck)


Bill Gould ?1980/03 R65 When at first you don't succeed....Moo!

tagordon

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 08:51:58 PM »
Gumby
I am confused a bit by your post.
I am of the understanding that the needles must both be set at the same position.
Or it will not be possible to have a balanced fuel delivery.
Troy

Offline Semper Gumby

  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 2173
  • Dances with cow!
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2008, 09:48:35 AM »
Yep they should be both the same - unless there is something else wrong with one of your carbs.  An excellent tool for setting carb mixtures (at idle) is a Colourtune Plug.  I suppose you could use one at night while riding but be careful - don't drive off the road.

Mind you I would do a full tune up first and go through everything from the ignition timing, torquing the head, adjusting the valves, check the compression, check the float height, do the carb sinc and then set the idle mixtures with the colourtune plug and then I would go chase the stumble (with the needles and new plugs.)

Hey I just saw your avatar -  That's a 2 into one free flowing exhaust am I correct? (Kerker?)  Then chances are you are too lean in the mid range.  Raise the needles one notch (put the clip on the next lowest groove) and go out and ride it.  Maybe you will get lucky.

My advise only worth 2 cents.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 10:18:49 AM by Semper_Gumby »
Bill Gould ?1980/03 R65 When at first you don't succeed....Moo!

not-so-fast-ed

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2008, 04:38:11 PM »
To paraphrase Geo Orwell "Some people's 2 cents are worth more than others."

 ;)

Ed

tagordon

  • Guest
Re: Dirty carb or worn needle? (4K stumble)
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2008, 05:25:26 PM »
SG
I moved the clips when I installed the exhaust.
My only problems with fuel are the bits from the tank.
I have cleaned it four times and now I only get very fine particles that pass the filters.
Have to clean the bowls once in awhile.
Or it prevents the needles from shutting off the fuel and I get the famous puddles.
Yes, it is an old Kerker exhaust circa 1984.
The exhaust helps the top end power and lightned the bike another 20-30 pounds.
I must weight it sometime and compare with the original specs.
It handles almost as quick as my R65 did.
T