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Author Topic: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)  (Read 2705 times)

Offline Tony Smith

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A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« on: June 01, 2015, 08:20:12 PM »
A rant about Diaphragms

It is rare that I would dare to disagree with Snowbum, the guy is an encyclopaedia of knowledge of all things BMW.

However, there is one topic on which I think Snowbum talks though his hat, that topic is generally the topic of Bing carburettor parts and specifically Snowbum’s opinion that death, doom and destruction will result from the use of non OEM parts in Bing Carbs.

In fact, Snowbum’s beliefs on the topic of where to buy Bing parts includes not buying them from Bing themselves, only from BMW according to Snowbum.
 
Let’s analyse that a little:

Aside from BMW motorcycles the largest “consumer” use for Bing carburettors is in aviation. Before any part goes into any component that becomes part of an aeroplane that part is subjected to rigorous testing and the manufacturer must supply the aviation authorities with a “supply chain assurance” to the effect that all parts will meet the specification without deviation and that all replacement parts are fit for purpose – in fact the manufacturer, even one the size of Bing, faces oblivion in the courts if any part of this sentence is found to be untrue.

Now I have never, ever, bought parts from Bing USA, or any other “Bing direct” outlet, however I would do so without a moment’s hesitation not only because of Bing’s supply chain assurance, but also because I figure that they want to stay in business and are unlikely to sell sub-standard parts.

The second area of Snowbum’s objection to non-OEM Bing parts is the dreaded area of diaphragms, Snowbum says that no replacement diaphragm should be used other than the original.

Why?

Most of Snowbum’s strongly held opinions are backed up with his test results and good solid reasons why he holds a particular view. For Snowbum he is very sparse on reasons for his preferences in regards to Bings.

Again Why?

Use of non-OEM diaphragms – the reality.
The slide actuated by a diaphragm is in effect a vacuum engine, due to the design of  the diaphragm itself the material has to have quite a drastic (and noticeable I’d suggest) stiffness in order to offer any real opposition to movement. The height to which the slide rises for a given vacuum is determined not by the stiffness of the diaphragm material but by the resistance of the spring fitted to the slide internal.

Could two slides of differing material thickness rise to different heights for a given amount of vacuum – not on your life, they will raise to the same height, the only thing that might vary is the speed at which they do so, and then you will not notice it anyway.
 
To re-cap.
1.      The design the diaphragm is such that the material stiffness (or lack therof) will not impede operation
2.      Carburettors (theoretically) fitted with diaphragms of different construction may well rise (or fall) at different rates but will ultimately rise to the same height as the slide height is mediated by the spring, not the diaphragm. To the extent that two different slides might rise or fall at different rates, for practical purposes you will never notice.
3.      In respect to other Bing parts, I have never bought from Bing Agency but I can think of no rational reason that a Bing part, made by Bing and sold through a Bing Agency (for use in aircraft no less) will be any less well made than a Bing Part delivered to BMW and then sold to the user.
4.      I have purchased a number of non Bing parts, including float needle and seat, jets and slide needles. I have also fitted both Stromberg and Motobins diaphragms – I have never had a problem.


So why the almost religious fervour to buy OEM.

Well, firstly Snowbum says that only OEM parts are the correct parts, that carries weight.

I suspect that the usual scenario plays out like this - Someone buys non-oem parts and has a problem when they put them into the carbs, they pull the carbs apart again (and probably fix the underlying problem) and put it back together with OEM parts – the problem has gone away so it must have been those danged non-OEM parts.

When it is said and done a carb is a simple device and usually it either works or it does not. Usually when it doesn’t work it is because either air or fuel is not going where it should, in the quantities it should. If you get the impression that I think 99.9% of carb problems are fixed by careful methodical cleaning, you are right.

Even with precision components such as jets I rarely actually buy a new jet, If I think that I need a different sized jet I will drill it to size – an investment a long time ago in a set of metric “number drills” pays for itself again and again. If a jet is too big, solder it closed and re-drill.


Rant continues next post
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 08:20:42 PM »
The only part that I do buy OEM is the slide needle and that because BMW fitted a different needle to just about every model, depending on which market the machine was destined for, nobody has ever bothered to make that sort of range of replacement needles. That said, I think I have only ever bought two and they were not the problem anyway (but they did eliminate a potential cause which made me find the real problem which was leaky inlet trumpets (and I’d made them myself which really hurt).

So do I think Snowbum is a liar, not at all. He has an opinion, a condition I can relate to as I have lots of them myself. In this particular instance, my opinion is that Snowbum is wrong.


And that is a good note upon which to conclude this rant – a terrific trick for diagnosing carb problems. If you are having problems setting and maintaining a nice idle and no amount of carb fiddling will get it to stay right – suspect your inlet trunks. To test them get the bike idling and then put the garden hose over the inlet trunks – if it stops (unlikely) you had a massive vacuum leak that let in enough water to drown the poor thing (but I suspect you might have noticed that). If the revs pick up slightly, and then drop away when you remove the hose, you have a minute vacuum leak which the water seals on a temporary basis – replace your inlet trunks and your idle will be able to be set and will stay set.


1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Adrian

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 12:57:51 AM »
That was very interesting Toni - good on yer .......
1984 R65 (860)

Offline Barry

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2015, 08:38:22 AM »
I already agreed with much of this on the other thread.

One thing I heard about Bing USA parts is that they are more expensive than BMW OEM parts which might be why they were recommended against although again if the pronouncement was not accompanied by a reasoned explanation I can understand that's a big turn off.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 08:39:11 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2015, 06:27:20 PM »
I got mine ordered before they ran out.

Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/184997966/sale-lord-of-the-bings-airhead-bmw
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Bob_W

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 07:41:21 PM »
Snowbum indicates price as the reason for buying from BMW rather than Bing.
He does back up his belief in OEM only diaphragms.
for what it's worth I am running non-OEM on the R100 without any problem I can feel.

Bob

Offline Justin B.

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 11:07:05 PM »
I think I remember there being a couple folks on here (in the distant past) try diaphragms for Zenith/Stromberg carbs with less than stellar results...
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline Ed Miller

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 02:19:25 PM »
I just priced rebuild kits from The Bing Agency, and they were twice what BMW (The Beemershop) wanted.  I do like Bing's better because their O-rings are different colors, so it's easier to know what o-ring goes where.   But I can figure it out.

Tony, in over 400,000 miles you never wore out your needles?  

Edit:  sorry, I got you mixed up with one of our British members.  How many miles do you have on your bike?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 02:20:20 PM by Ed_Miller »
Ed Miller
'81 r65
Falls City, OR

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: A rant about Diaphragms (and other carb stuff)
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 08:00:15 PM »
Quote

Tony, in over 400,000 miles you never wore out your needles?  

Edit:  sorry, I got you mixed up with one of our British members.  How many miles do you have on your bike?


More than that I think, yes it did get new needles some time in the late 80s IIRC. They will be worn now, along with the slides, the butterfly bushes, and a whole host of other things. In fact my RS is so worn out it is frankly a doubtful proposition to rebuild it from a costs perspective, however I will do so because it has been sharing my life since 1978 and I owe it.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |