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Author Topic: Sidecar question  (Read 5494 times)

Offline marcmax

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Sidecar question
« on: September 26, 2014, 07:05:52 PM »
A couple of months ago I woke up with ringing in my left ear and by the end of the day I had lost all hearing it that ear and 50% in the other. Numerous trips to the hospital and specialists led to one thing, a long medical name for the problem but no known cause for it. The Dr. said it happens to 5-6k people a year and with a treatment of steroids most people recover most of their hearing.

Good news is I have recovered 90% of the hearing in my left ear and 100% in my right. The bad news is I now have bouts of vertigo that make me nervous about riding a bike.

I decided to "undo" the cafe'ing and put my R65 more or less back to a conventional bike and to add a sidecar. I found a nice Velorex, complete with all mounting hardware, etc. for a decent price and close enough to drive and load in my truck.

I called my BMW guru to ask about hanging and adjusting it and he told me he would never drive a sidecar rig without an Earles fork. Never, not ever. I value his opinion but he is also a Concourse level restoration person and believes nothing should be modified from the original design.

An Earles fork setup (if you can find one) is over $2-3k

This is a light weight fiberglass body hack that weighs in at 150 lbs. I have seen sidecar rigs of much heavier sidecars on Goldwings, Harleys, Guzzis and such without an Earles fork.

I am not planning any long, high speed highway trips. My trips are mainly secondary roads and just extended weekend trips. Anyone have any knowledge of the use of either type of front end with a sidecar and want to offer suggestions?
Keep your bike in good repair: motorcycle boots are not comfortable for walking.

1982 R65ls    1984 R65ls

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2014, 08:23:08 PM »
Bluntly your friend is right.

The Earles fork is far more able to resist  the loadings place don the front end by a sidecar.

That said, providing you can accept the compromise, telescopics obviously can be made to work.

I understand your view of the cost of earles forks, you could have course fabricate them yourself, there is no rocket science in them and you could use the dimensions of an earlier BMW as the starting point.

If i were doing  it, I would make the earles forks up, or if that looked like too much work I would buy the front end out of a Japanese behemoth with USD forks and use that.


One thought is that you could probably buy the front end out of a Chiang Jang as a part for not much money direct from China, also a ural front end might be worth considering too.

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2014, 08:28:35 PM »
I don't think that you need an Earles fork.   I'm putting a sputnik (it is a little heavier than the velorix, but not by a huge amount) on my R100 and I'm not planning to put a leading link setup on.  But, alot of it depends on several factors:
1.  The "stock" steering geometry of the motorcycle
2. The weight of the whole rig
3. Width of the handlebars
4. Your upper body strength and what you are comfortable with.
5. The tires on the rig - knobbies have less friction on the road than street tires - which works both for and against you.

One thing that I do believe in - the attachment of the sidecar to the frame absolutely MUST be as stiff and strong as it can be.   The Velorex typical U-bolt thingies do not fit this norm.   I'd suggest getting a subframe kit from Dauntless Motors, or a few other suppliers of such kits if you can't do the fabricating/welding or do the mechanical analysis yourself.

Your top end and fuel mileage will drop considerably.

But everyone will want to stop and look/talk about it!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 08:30:11 PM by nhmaf »
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline montmil

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2014, 05:53:19 AM »
Former R65 forum member "Scotty in Texas" rolled his conventional forked R65 hack rig for many years throughout the Texas Hill Country without problems. His only issue with his R65 unit sidecar was a cracked mounting strut at one time.

Hooked up with Scotty at Perry's Motorcycles & Sidecars in Fort Worth on the day he swapped his R65 rig for an R90 -IIRC- rig that Perry was to build for him. More power. No Earles.

I will PM you his contact info. Contact Scotty with your questions and concerns. He's cool. Tell him I sent you.

Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline marcmax

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2014, 06:05:00 AM »
What about the idea of sliding the forks higher in the triple tree to shorten the trail. That appears to be one of the things that makes an Earles fork so desirable, its shorter trail.
Keep your bike in good repair: motorcycle boots are not comfortable for walking.

1982 R65ls    1984 R65ls

Offline montmil

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2014, 06:10:32 AM »
That's another question to add to your "Call Scotty" list.  ;)
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Motu

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2014, 07:09:56 AM »
I've had a sidecar with leading link forks and very little trail, a purpose built sidecar rig (Ural) with telescopic forks with reduced trail, and a stock motorcycle (Norton) with a lot of trail, about as much as a BMW.  Reducing trail lightens up the front end, but stock is really no problem at all.  I'd set it up and see how you feel - wider bars will lighten up the steering, but also put a lot of feedback in.  It depends how you ride, I tend to be pretty  aggressive with a sidecar on a bike, the bike with the most trail had the heaviest chair, and I used to get it sideways one way, and fly the chair the other way, no worries....

Offline marcmax

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2014, 12:27:14 PM »
Whats the saying, "No guts, no glory". I just bought the sidecar and will do my best to learn what it takes to make it work. For $900 if it doesn't work out I can always resell it.

The guy I bought it from had it attached to an R80 and said he had no problems at all with a standard front fork once he had it setup. He is about 250 miles away and is even willing to meet me halfway and transfer it from truck to truck.

I took Monte's advice and emailed Scotty in Tex to get his opinion on it as he drove a sidecar on his R65 for years.

(sigh) All those years of collecting parts to cafe my bike and age caught up with me (sigh). Looks like I will probably be having a parts sale.
Keep your bike in good repair: motorcycle boots are not comfortable for walking.

1982 R65ls    1984 R65ls

Offline montmil

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2014, 01:49:55 PM »
Quote
... All those years of collecting parts to cafe my bike and age caught up with me (sigh). Looks like I will probably be having a parts sale.

Be sure and let your buds here in the asylum get first dibs on your junk.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2014, 08:32:02 PM »
Quote
 But, alot of it depends on several factors:
1.  The "stock" steering geometry of the motorcycle
2. The weight of the whole rig
3. Width of the handlebars
4. Your upper body strength and what you are comfortable with.
5. The tires on the rig - knobbies have less friction on the road than street tires - which works both for and against you.

One thing that I do believe in - the attachment of the sidecar to the frame absolutely MUST be as stiff and strong as it can be.  
Your top end and fuel mileage will drop considerably.

But everyone will want to stop and look/talk about it!

I'd like to take a few minutes and go through the stuff I agree with you on and, more importantly, the stuff ?I disagree with you on, and why.

1/. The stock steering geometry of the R65 is unsuitable, that said, the geometry can be disguised by altering the rear ride height, the amount of  "lean-out" and even the fore and aft positioning of the sidecar relative to the motorcycle. The one thing you cannot change is the amount of flex in the entirely inadequate R65 forks. At the very least the best quality fork brace should be fitted, along with soem very much heavier than standard springs (the forks will dive more under brakes due the increased all up weight, fork dive will adversely affect the steering geometry).

2/. Agree, as light as possible having regard to rigidity and strength is very important.
 
3/. The object of correctly setting up a sidecar is to build it such that as little as possible effort needs to be put into muscling it about, I would only change the bars if I found the stock ones to be inadequate
 after road testing and setting up.

4/. See above, the object of correctly setting up a sidecar rig is to mostly avoid having to exert force to make it do what you want.


At this point I should fess up regarding my experience in building and operating sidecars. I will ignore time spent simply riding sidecar outfits that were factory built, my greatest learning was in building a sidecar used to recover broken down motorcycles.

I spent some time before heading to work looking for photographs, as they are all way in advance of digital photography this means searching through a lot of old albums - I will post photos eventually.
 
Anyway, the outfit I built was based on a Honda CB500T (good power and dirt cheap at the time). The sidecar was in essence a flat bed tray approximately 1 foot longer than the CB500 and a little over 3 foot wide. Side car suspension was by way of a pre-fabricated light automotive trailer torsion arm suspension mounting a 13 inch automotive wheel and tyre.
 
The "learnings" along the way were:-
 
Whilst the mounting to the motorcycle must be strong and movement free, it also needs to be adjustable. To the end I used automotive suspension ball joints to attach the sidecar frame to the re-inforced bottom frame loop of the motorcycle, the re-in forcing beam extended somewhat aft of the rear suspension pivot and allowed the use of three ball joints for mounting, the middle was fixed rigidly and the foremost and rearmost ones  incorporated lateral adjustment (relative to the motorcycle) so that toe-in/tow-out could be adjusted.
 
The reason balll joints were used was that it was always intended that the lean-out be adjustable and this was done but fabricating re-in forced uppper mounts on the motorcycle frame connected to the sidecar frame by way of large turnbuckles  usually found in tractor implement attachments (in fact they were purchased from a 2nd hand farm machinery salvage firm), thus lean out could be adjusted in seconds by the coordinated turning of the turnbuckles. It was intended at the design phase to automate the turnbuckles by either using teleflex cables to a knob on the handlebars or by using electric gate controllers, but neither system was ever implemented.
 
Front suspension was initially stock CB-500T, but proved hopelessly inadequate with heayy loads and was replaced with a fabricated earles fork which used air adjustable automotive shock absorbers as the suspension elements. Initially it was intended to carry an on-board compressor to adjust the front suspension, but in practice a foot pump was found to be faster and was certainly much cheaper.

The rear suspension was replaced by a fabricated part and the frame pivots were re-inforced by fishplates (which proved inadequate in the longer term).

After initial fore/aft alignment, road testing was used to determine the correct amount of lean-out for the motorcycle, success was regarded as acheived when the outfit would track straight on level road with hands off the bars. The steering neutrality thus achieved allowed minor on-road left and right directional adjustments to be mostly accomplished by the use of throttle.
 
Continued next post.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 09:04:49 PM »
At this stage the next test was to strap in a Kawasaki Z1300 (the biggest and heaviest motorcycle immediately available to us). It was quickly determined that the turnbuckles could be used to rapidly restore steerign neutrality, and, after a chain and sprocket change to something from Honda's trailbike range, that the CB500T had sufficient power to move itself=, laden with a Z1300 and that a reasonable on road speed could be maintained.
 
I then rode the outfit, loaded with the Z1300, up the Gillies range (google this, 2,400ft elevation change in 18km and around 300 corners - on a solo motorcycle it is a blast). Going up proved to be no problem, coming down I rapidly ran out of brakes and had to make several stops to allow the front brake to cool.
 
After that test we replaced the front brake system withe the twin discs off something newer, and fitted a hand operated brake to the sidecar wheel (operated by a secondary lever on the left hand bar).

After several moths use we found that those experienced in riding the outfit could guesstimate with surprising accuracy how much lean out to provide for a particular load (we marked the unloaded setting so that it could always be restored quickly to a "known" condition, and experience also taught us that a certain pressure (which I can no longer recall) was sufficient in both the front and rear suspension and that the gains by fiddling with it were minimal.

In the the longer term the major issues were ongoing frame cracking in the CB5000T frame which was regarded as unsurprising given that the base point once just about any other motorcycle was loaded was that the CB500T frame was being subjected to more than twice its designed load. Other issues included spokes fretting and loosening, particularly on the rear wheel, addressed in the short term by building the wheel with heavier spokes and mechanically locking them, in the longer term by fitting suitable cast wheels as they became available 2nd hand.
 
Now, this outfit was built over several months in 1980, it was operated by Cairns Kawasaki until that firm failed in approximately 1984. At that point I bought it back and gave it to a friend of mine who had just opened a Kawasaki dealership in Townsville. He used it for some years,  (around 1990 if memory serves) until he got tired of fixing the constant frame cracking. At the time he had a wrecked water cooled Kawasaki 900. using the damaged 900 frame as a template for engine and suspension mounts a new frame was fabricated, the new frame was very heavily built and was reinforced were necessary to absorb load from the sidecar.

Prior to the change in the cycle component I borrowed the outfit on a number of occasions, most notably to attend a rally some 1,000km from Townsville. After a little messing about it was able to be adjusted to neutral steering and I found it quite pleasant to ride over that distance, although I thought at first instance the relatively low maximum on-road speed might have proved a handicap I had taken the precaution of fitting a 40lt fuel tank and an electric pump to refill the standard Honda tank on the move, as I only needed to stop at approximately every 3rd fuel stop the solos required I was more or less able to keep pace with them.

My friend sold the Kawasaki dealership in the middle 90s and the new owner did not know how to ride an outfit and was not minded to learn, it was instead sold to a Townsville motorbike repair shop and as at 2012 was still in daily use by them. On the assumption that it is still in use, the sidecar component has been in more or less continuous use for approximately 33 years which suggests that the time spent at the start thinking through the requirements was time well spent.

I should mention that whilst at Magnum Kawasaki in Townsville a trailer ball was fitted so that a trailer could be hitched more or less at the mid point between cycle and side car - the outfit was frequently seen on weekends with a Jetski in the sidecar and two or three jetski's in the trailer.

Sorry for the very long rant, the main purpose was to show that I have some sidecar credentials. If I were asked whether an unmodified R65 is a suitable motorcycle to mount a sidecar, my answer would be an emphatic "no". If I were asked whether a R65 could be modified to mount a passenger carrying light weight sidecar, my answer would be "yes", If I was then asked what modifications I would perform I would answer - Earles Forks, extensive gusseting of the frame, particularly at the mount points of the frame. If I was then asked whether the modifications could be done in a way that at a later stage they could be removed leaving no trace of the cycle's use as an outfit, my answer would be "with difficulty".

Thank you for reading my rant on this topic.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Bob_W

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 07:09:57 AM »
Marc
My wife Gale has a Ural hack on a F650 with stock forks. It is set up to steer neutral on a level road. It does take me some miles to get used to the increased steering effort over a two wheeler, but she is able to ride about two hundred or so miles at a time.
During the sidecar class in Jax, I drove the instructor's Harley with a reduced trail front end and it steered with less effort in the parking lot.
I think the rig is twitchy but that is probably my not riding it often. Making a right hand turn from one road to another while braking requires a lot of force to me, but she seems to handle it.
Good luck with the conversion.
Bob

Offline marcmax

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2014, 03:53:34 PM »
In a perfect world I would drive a purpose built sidecar/tug with a Earles fork and all the associated farkles. Of course I don't live in a perfect world so make adjustments to make the world fit my needs.

I understand Tony's knowledge and concerns about sidecar setup and usage with an R65. I am impressed by the rig he built and its longevity and carrying ability. It sounds like something I would like to see and I wish I lived nearby to take advantage of his wealth of motorcycle and mechanical knowledge.

Still I am doing this not for a long haul or load bearing vehicle but for a fun around town ride. Heck the highest elevation within 200 miles is an overpass across the highway. Carrying an occasional passenger, camping gear for a weekend outing or groceries from the store will be the most vigorous usage it will get.

I grew up racing and long distance touring on bicycles. I even spent a number of years custom building bicycle frames. I am very familiar with two wheel vehicle frame and steering geometry. If you want a challenge try taking 6-7 lbs of thin wall steel tubing and build a frame that will support a 170 lb rider and 50 lbs of gear on tires the size of your finger running 120 psi pressure. All with no suspension and make it safe for everything from a rutted shoulder of a road to a scorching 50 mph decent down a mountain road.

I've already ordered a steering damper (thanks ShutterPilot for the parts list in your post) as well as a fork brace to steady up the front end. People have been strapping sidecars on motorcycles since the 19-teens without any special equipment. A little common sense and patience attaching and adjusting the setup and I think it will be fine.

Keep your bike in good repair: motorcycle boots are not comfortable for walking.

1982 R65ls    1984 R65ls

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2014, 07:10:04 PM »
I'd still recommend getting a purpose-built subframe like you can get from either Freedom Sidecars in Pennsylvania or DMC out in Washington, or some other experienced fabricators.   These subframes GREATLY stiffen and strengthen the airhead frame and take the stress of the side-loading imposed by the hack.   You don't want to try attaching any sidecar link to the rear subframe of on post 1970 airhead without one of these things - it will quickly get bent and twisted, or snapped off.  It also allows you to use seriously strong attachment hardware that won't run the risk of crushing the thinner-walled tubing of the airhead frame.

I think if you don't go too heavy, and mount the rig wheel between 8-10" ahead of the rear axle (experimentation with different bikes and chairs IS necessary) and don't have clip-on/narrow euro-bars, you'll probably be fine to riding on regular roads.   Attempting to go offroad or on jeep trails would not be a good experience though.

I've seen several R65s with velorex 562/565 attached.   I have personally driven them though, but the owners seem happy with them, understanding that they won't be setting any land speed records with them or riding the TAT or PAris-Dakar..
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Luca

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Re: Sidecar question
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2014, 07:26:10 AM »
What about your LS front wheel's ball bearings?  Will they be able to take the lateral loads like the tapered roller bearings found on all the other airheads?
'82 R65LS
'01 K1200RS