Condition of LRB's Valves!!!!

[suecanada]

I don't know if the valve on the right of Ted Porter's picture above is my valve but it is exactly the same condition!! I will probably take the valve to the MOA and to the Airheads tent when I go this summer so all the airheads can oogle it!

[Melena]

Wow Sue!  That's scary.  I've been slack in checking out the Tech stuff lately and I just found this.  

I'm glad you posted this.  I'm going to take my bike in to the local BMW shop (I got a $1500 gift certificate from the  local BMW shop  from work at our annual Christmas Dinner for my 15 year anniversary  [smiley=grin.gif] - ain't that cool?!? )

One of the things I thought I'd better do is have them take the heads off and have the valves sent out and have the new ones put in.  While I've got the money to do it, I'd better go ahead and do it.    Now I know where to have them sent.    I like Ted Porter.   I got my new mufflers from him.  

Plus I'll have them do a complete check up and service.  Might as well.  Then I'll know exactly what's up with the things that I just don't have time to do (I don't have a wife who will cook and clean for me, or a husband for that matter, while I work on the bike      )

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

Golly, Sue, I just saw the pictures of the bad valve for the first time.

All I can say is, I hope those were not Black Diamond exhaust valves.  That is what I had Bob Grauer (408 248 9732 San Francisco) install for my exhaust valves (purchased from Bob's).

We used factory R60 intake valves.

Mine was a bit customized as I upgraded from the stock 7mm stem valves to 8mm stems.  
I am pretty sure the '80 on R65's had 8mm stems all around.

[suecanada]

Gosh Rob I am pretty darn sure that my old valves are NOT Black Diamond. If I remember correctly, Ted Porter liked Black Diamond valves when he worked at Bob's BMW on the east coast. Apologies if I am wrong here but when Ted worked with Bob didn't he support Black Diamond. Anyway no worries for you Rob on that score. I don't know what valves Ted uses now.

So yesterday, my friend and I completed assembly [smiley=clap.gif]. The first day a week ago it took quite a long time to clean things such as the mating faces and the piston head so we'd be ready for assembly. Just like many jobs, it is the prep work that takes the time. Anyway, yesterday was NOT a snow day so on went the cylinders and heads. We compressed the rings carefully by hand; both of us working at it with one holding the piston and the other gently easy the cylinder inwards. I was able to aid the compression job by gently pushing in on each ring with the edge of a credit card. All went well. The ONLY odd thing was the central stud that holds the valve cover on with that shiny acorn nut...you know the one..the one people strip out the most. Anyway the two studs which Ted had removed of course needed to go back in and they were different lengths. I read about this in my readings and I may just get a longer stud so there is at least 4 threads left for the acorn nut and washer. That stud has threads on both ends naturally and should be red loctited into the cylinder head and a very, very light snug on the acorn nut side. If I need to turn out that stud a bit to get the 4 threads I need, I don't see how even red loctite can keep it from breaking free. I'd rather have it turned right in all the way.

So what did I learn from this episode of mechanics?  One, assembly and disassembly are fairly straight forward after you read all you can from the internet sources like Snowbum. Here is some of the tricky stuff:
1. The big 0 ring shouldn't be oiled and put on the cylinder block until you are ready to assemble as it swells. Not good.
2. The sealant if you use it should be ultra thinly spread on both sides (block and cylinder) preferably using your finger. Ted Porter used a Permatex product...can't remember now.
3. The gasket on the outside of the cylinder block must be put on with writing facing out or else it will partially cover the holes for the pushrods.
4. There is a punch mark that is very, very small on the top of the pillow blocks for the rocker assembly. Make sure that punch mark IS on top and ALSO facing outwards!
5. There is an inside oiling hole inside the rocker assemble tower? and it should be facing UP on the top tower. This is vital as this is where oil needs to get through.
6. The stud for the valve cover needs to be red loctited in.
7. Don't need a lot of oil for assembly...called a dry assembly as just a film of oil is necessary.
8. Work fairly quickly once assembly is started and get the torquing done all in one session. Not hard as things go fairly quickly. Only stumbling block is the compression of the rings.
9. Make sure you get the ring gaps aligned as per some readings on the matter. Seems impt. not to have gaps aligned on a thrust surface something-er-other. Just get advice on recommended alignments!
10. Oil inside new pushrod seals and silicone or oil outside surface for ease of seating them in their holes in the block.
11. Watch that the little 0 rings (oiled) are not displaced during assembly..small chance.
12. One or the other of the pushrod seals may need a wee helping hand to get started into their holes They will tend to "cock" the cylinder slightly out from the bottom at first. This all gets straightened out when carefully torquing everything up. Just be aware that the bottom is going to be cocked out to begin with.
13. Torque up the nuts in steps just like our owners manual says. (11, 18 then final 25 foot pounds) DO NOT EXCEED 25 ft. lbs.!!
14. From Oak:  ride 40 miles or so then re-torque and reset the valve clearances. Then keep an eye on things with another periodic check. The idea is that the engine needs one heat cycle; then retorque and set things again. Oak says things can change pretty dramatically at first. DO NOT allow the engine to cool down in between this first 40 mile or so ride....in other words go shopping another time! Make sure the engine is cooled down..let it sit overnight for instance.

Think that pretty well empties my brain! If I have another learned gem I'll pass it along later. Hope this helps someone as untechnical as me!!

[suecanada]

Oh by the way, my friend and I turned the engine over first using the back wheel then with the starter motor and nothing blew up, scrapped or moaned.   [smiley=beerchug.gif]  So LRB sits over at my friend's home in a nice rec room/pub waiting until the snow leaves..fat chance right now..still have plenty on the ground. My F650GS single has left the Brrrm Closet and is getting a safety and valve check for the new owner and will be delivered to said new owner soon. Gone! Sniff. New twin F650GS won't be here until late April, early May.

Next job with LRB will be to perform some tests I read about to ascertain how healthy his transmission is!

[nhmaf]

I think that this thread, or at least Sue's write-up  would be a candidate for the tech info section !

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

14. From Oak:  ride 40 miles or so then re-torque and reset the valve clearances. Then keep an eye on things with another periodic check. The idea is that the engine needs one heat cycle; then retorque and set things again. Oak says things can change pretty dramatically at first. DO NOT allow the engine to cool down in between this first 40 mile or so ride....in other words go shopping another time! Make sure the engine is cooled down..let it sit overnight for instance.



I am confused on this point.  

After the initial 40 mile heat cycle, retorque while still hot.

After the next heat-cycle-check, let the engine cool down before checking.


Am I understanding this correctly?

[suecanada]

Rob...something is amiss..you are right. Let me check that out. My tech books are over at my friends. I THINK that the bike needs to cool down completely BEFORE re-torquing and resetting valves. Yeah..we never set valves when hot do we! I had another senior's moment!

Ride 40 miles. Let bike cool. THEN do the retorquing and valve setting. SORRY!!!

Ahh...that "thingy" word...a big typo...I meant that the pushrod seals will keep the cylinder pushed out from the bottom at first..cocked out until they seat when torqued down.

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

Actually a point (of contention, somewhat) came up on Boxerworks a while back when Duane announced to the world that you could adjust your valves HOT, as it didn't really matter.  The gap would be the same at both extremes of temperature.

It is just more convienient to do it when the parts are cold.



But, of course, adjusting valves is not what we are really talking about here.

[Melena]

Sue,
I commend you for taking on that job.  Wow!  I sure don't have the time or place to do it.   I think if I weren't working I would try to do it though, following your great suggestions.  

I don't remember reading it, maybe you wrote about it, but what was it that got you to take care of this?  Were the valves closing up on you too fast?  I'd better check mine tomorrow.

I met Ted Porter at the rally in Quincy where I bought the new mufflers from him.  Great guy.  He's not too far from me.  Maybe 3 hours away, so it's not that close either.  I'm glad to hear about your good experience with him too.  

[suecanada]

Melena.....one exhaust valve, the one on the left side was closing very fast. I'm talking here 300 miles say. Anytime I checked it had less clearance. I am betting NOW that it was losing its set clearance immediately after I would have buttoned things upafter setting the valves.  Looking at the keeper grooves on the valve from that side there was so much "slop" "Play"?? that there would be no way to sustain a setting. Am I correct in saying this fellows??

So, we check valves as a diagnostic tool. Lose .001 in 3000 miles is OK. Keep checking them if you see that this isn't the case.

If Justin or Rob choose to put the tips on this job in the tech section, someone needs to fix my boo boos! Rob's point is stunningly interesting from Duane!!!! If a lock nut is tight on a valve, I suppose one must wonder just how much the metals involved could expand/contract with heating/cooling cycle to change the clearance dramatically. Hmmmm. :-/

[nhmaf]

I think that you might be mis-understanding Oak's point.  My interpretation, and what I have heard from other sources, is that you want the engine to get hot, and
then cool down WHEN IT IS IN YOUR GARAGE or wherever you work on the bike, as the clearances will change alot during that first heating/cooling cycle.
You want the bike to be where you are going to work on it and do the head torque and valve check after the bike has cooled off overnight, before you restart the engine a 2nd time.  This way, if things have REALLY drastically changed, you won't run the risk of damaging anything, oil leaks, etc. the 2nd time your start and run the bike.

If you go ride the bike to the mall, shop for an hour or two, ride to the hardware store, stop for 20 minutes, ride to the ice cream shop, and then back home, you are subjecting the bike's engine to multiple heating/cooling cycles, which is what they are telling you to NOT do on that first ride/cruise.

The specification of the torque values from BMW are for a cold engine.  I would not try to torque the heads to those specs when they are hot, not to mention
avoiding burned fingers !

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

I don't think I would torque the heads while they are hot.

I don't know why (I am not a mechanic), but I agree with nhmaf.


And I doubt I will ever find myself in the place where I would need to adjust my valves while hot.

When my left exhaust valve began closing up rapidly, I might have been tempted to adjust it at the rest stop where my bike would not idle, but the bike "ran fine" as it was, so I continued to my destination (~100 miles) and adjusted them the next morning.

[MrRiden]

I think NHMAF has the idea. From what I have done on other head replacements on air & water cooled engines was to follow a procedure where everything got buttoned up, torqued and run up to full operating temperature, kept there for a while, allowed to cool completely and re torqued. It's a pretty standard method used throughout engine rebuilding. I love the click of a torque wrench in the morning!
rich
 Excellent how to Sue  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Ed Miller]

I used to have a car on which you were supposed to adjust the valves when hot.  That sucked.  

Regarding Duane's point, I suspect you could have a well running bike if you adjusted the valves hot, but I do think there would be a measurable difference in the clearances between hot and cold.  That is easy enough for anybody to check of course, but I'm not going to do it.