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Author Topic: Good day for voting (And riding) !  (Read 4954 times)

trolle

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2008, 02:32:20 PM »
You are absolutely right, Gumby, I do not understand the reasons for the Civil War, as I do not understand the reasons for WWI and WWII or any other war for that matter.

20 years ago I was battery commander of an artillery battery assigned to hold up the WAPA for as long as possible, should they try to invade the southern shores of Denmark. As nobody expected us to get away from our positions alive, the tractors for our guns were conscripted farm tractors and our guns were 105 mm guns from 1942 presented to the Danish Army through the Marshal aid in the fifties. My men were family fathers in the beginning of their thirties who had served their national service ten years before.

I found the whole setup absolutely idiotic and disgusting but nevertheless I was prepared to do my duty as an officer and soldier  should it come to that - and according to the intelligence services the situation was volatile in the mid eighties.

No I do not understand war, it is a completely senseless undertaking, and the older I get the more senseless it seems to be.

I do not like guns either, they scare me. In my view the state should have the monopoly of violence and only the state, which  doesn't mean that I am in favor of a strong state, but I prefer to live in a society where my family and I are protected by the state and where we do not run the risk of being shot by some idiot who thinks that firing a gun is a means to solve a dispute. I am also afraid of guns because owning a gun would be senseless, unless it was meant to be used. And using a gun would ultimately mean killing somebody, which is something I do not want to do unless my family's or my  life is seriously threatened. (Yes I know that this is one of the reasons for war, but this reason very quickly gives way for something very uncontrollable, which in the twentieth century cost the lives of 100 million people.)

If owning guns is not allowed the risk of being threatened on one's life is smaller and the need for owning a gun for protection is likewise smaller.

greetings from a wet and dark north


Offline Justin B.

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2008, 03:37:43 PM »
Trolle, I always hate spouting cliches but the one "If you criminalize guns then only criminals will have them" holds very true.  If all firearms were to be outlawed then outside of the few "rebels" who would hide theirs the only ones left would be in the hands of those who would do us harm.  I agree that in a perfect utopian world there would be no need for a weapon of any kind but we all know that will never be the case.  Just remember that if somebody wants to cause you to assume room temperature they will use a knife, club, vehicle, bottle full of gas, you name it - should we do away with everything some nut could use to cause mayhem?

Our founding fathers held the strong belief that one of the first steps required for a totalitarian government to flourish is to inhibit free speech and then disarm the general population.  I tend to agree with them...
Justin B.

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Offline nhmaf

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2008, 04:31:17 PM »
Robert Heinlein's statement, "An armed society is a polite society" is very often true.

I generally find the people that have the most respect for the rights of the individual, have a healthy respect for firearms, know how to use them and what they are capable of, are generally the most likely to NOT use them in a manner inappropriate to polite society.      The people most likely to use firearms to kill indiscriminately or to commit other crimes with them are generally those who have no respect for other's rights, and generally have no/little knowledge of firearms and no clue as to the consequences of their use.  As Justin points out, they will certainly use whatever tool they find to be the most convenient/expeditious to facilitate their nefarious tasks, whether it is a firearm, knife, hammer, or club.   In the interest of protecting my life or the lives of those dear to me, I will use whatever tool I find to be the most convenient/expeditious to gain the upper hand over those who have no respect for my right to life, whether it is a firearm, knife, club, or a pair of salad tongs.

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Offline steve hawkins

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2008, 04:48:52 AM »
It is a sad state of affairs, a self fullfilling prophecy.  They have weapons, so we have to have weapons.

The similar situation that prevailed throughout the cold war - mutually assured destruction but this is on a smaller scale.  

I also served in the armed forces for 17 years.  This makes me very nervous of fire arms in general.  I was/am fascinated by them.  That is not to say that I would personally want to own one or would want my neighbour to own one.

In the RAF I used to handle and shoot the following:

9mm Browning pistol
9mm Sub Machine Gun (Sterling)
.303 Lee Enfield mk4
7.62mm Self Loading Rifle (SLR - FN derived)
7.62mm GPMG - General Purpose Machine Gun
SA80

Even used to help load the 30mm Aden cannons on the Hawk weapons trainers.  I was just an Aircraft engineer.

One thing it taught me, stood on guard with a full magazine of certain death, is that if you carry a gun, you have already 'Upped the Ante' and you had better be ready to use it, and be ready for the consequences, whatever they might be.  

How many of you used to have to check under your car for bombs before you drive to work in the morning and also be told to vary your route so you could not be ambushed.  How many of you would face restrictions on where you could and could not go in an evening.  As a member of the armed forces, most of my career was spent not advertising that fact and never wearing my uniform in public.  Nothing to be proud of.  Thankfully the IRA no longer pursue thier goals with the use of firearms and bombs.

Only the criminals, terrorists and armed forces (including very limited numbers of the Police) carry firearms (the type who's sole purpose is to kill people) in the UK.  Pistols and auto's are banned - as they have only one purpose - to kill people at short range.  Rifles and Shotguns are not but you have to have a good reason to own them, are licenced, and their use is restricted.  

But I feel much safer.  As in general guns are still rare.  

But we still have the occasional mad man, the massacre in Hungerford - I was trying to drive through Hungerford that day, and was diverted away from the town as he was still running amock at the time.  Then there was Dunblaine - Some nutter goes into a primary school and kills little children and teachers!  Notice I will not name the individuals.

Of course these are rare occurances, well, in the UK they are - these are the only two occurances in the last 20 years!  And the second incident ushered in the pistol ban.  But it would happen far more often if these weapons we more freely available.

We are not trying to protect ourselves from the average citizen.  But by restricting access to everyone we can make them more difficult to get hold of by those who would put them to use.  And having any gun without appropriate licencing automatically makes you a criminal and carries with a very serious sentence - as it should, whether you use it or not.

Its not big and it cetainly is not clever.  Too many Die Hard movies, the reality is somewhat different.  And don't get me started on anyone with a Bible in one hand (or the Koran) and a pistol in the other - spouting religion - psycho's the lot of them - the most dangerous people in the world.


Trolle, I used to be a member of a Heavy lift Squadron (Chinooks) who used to regularly deploy to Denmark in the 1980's, the last dark days of the cold war.  Aalborg, Copenhagen, etc.  Loved Tivoli Gardens and Copenhagen in general - gets cold in the winter though.  But I think I have said this before.

Steve H
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 04:54:23 AM by steve_hawkins »
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Offline nhmaf

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2008, 11:57:32 AM »
Yes, it is sad, Steve.

And because there are fewer legal firearms in Britain ( I strongly suspect that the number of illegal firearms has not decreased - how could you count them?), violence committed with knives has escalated and now the government is banning many of those, including pointy kitchen knives.  Even pocket knives of the boy scout variety have restrictions. It is a slippery slope of false security that I think your country is sliding on - I suspect that the long salad tongs may be next on the list.   How will you be able to chop up a potato to make chips ?  Eventually you'll be left with having to justify a pair of scissors  in the household or keeping an axe to chop firewood.   I am sure that your local police office is next door, though - things are much closer together in general, in Europe.  And your government knows what is best for you.   I think that we can generally agree that our US government doesn't necessarily know what is best for anybody, and we  American citizens are generally quite more comfortable with having to fend for ourselves more often than European citizens.  Our town only has a couple police officers to cover about 35 square miles.   And, they don't work on weekends - our police "coverage" as it where, must come from the next town over on weekends, when they can be spared.  

I own firearms (of all varieties) primarily for hunting, and secondarily for defense and target shooting.   I regularly hike into the mountains were we have plenty of bear, coyotes, wolves, and the occasional mountain lion and carry a handgun for defense, and for procuring food and signaling for help if I become lost and have to fend for myself for a few days.  In self defense, I will not shoot any animal, regardless of how many legs it walks on, unless it comes down to it or me, but, I have had to come very close on at least one occasion - and that was the time that I WASN'T carrying a handgun.   Fortunately, the rabid coyote (our coyotes are about 60-70 pounds in this part of the country) buggered off after we stared intensely at each other for a few minutes from about 10 feet away.  Handguns have a very legitimate purpose for personal protection - anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't realized how much more energy it takes to pack an 8 pound rifle on a 20 mile hike than an 1.5 pound handgun.  It also invites very negative reactions when one does encounter another person out on the trail, especially if it is a conservation officer and there is no open hunting season at the time.    They would NEVER believe that one was luggin around a rifle while hiking for "personal protection".    They are perfectly at ease if they see a handgun in a holster, or in my case, nothing at all.   IF they ask if I am carrying a concealed firearm I will tell them yes and show them my concealed carry license, which indicates the police have checked my history and background, acquaintances, etc. and deemed me safe and one of the good guys.  I think that as long as we have good people and bad people in the world, there will be issues, but even without bad people, there are still legitimate reasons for owning firearms - of both short and long types.  I don't "arm up" to defend against some un-named bogeyman, but I do have a variety of tools that happen to be firearms that I use for perfectly logical and useful purposes, and which can, if necessary be employed for purposes of self protection in the event of true need.   I hope that I never have to use a firearm for purposes of self defense, but wishing about it won't make it so, and as a responsible gun-owning citizen, I am trained and willing to bear the responsibilities that come with owning firearms. In the case of defense against humans, often one doesn't even need to fire a shot, and I think that none of us here has any delusions about reliving something that happened in the Old West over a hundred years ago.

I find it very silly to watch shows from the BBC-America channel that we receive and see all the firearms being carried by non-law enforcement personnel in Britain.   My wife and I say, "Obviously, that could never happen, so why do they show it?"  Of course, it is TV and purely fictional entertainment, but why bother when there must be a bobby or two with more than a pointed stick at your immediate service ?

I am sure that this is but one of many things that we can agree to disagree on, but that is perfectly OK and there are many many other things which we call have in common and do agree on, including BMW airheads !      So, let us focus more on the joys of motorcycles, and good beer - even if you may like yours a little bit closer to room temperature than we do !
 :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 12:01:00 PM by nhmaf »
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Offline Justin B.

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2008, 12:42:00 PM »
Well said, Mike, and I concur...
Justin B.

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not-so-fast-ed

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2008, 05:11:28 PM »
Amen!

aussie

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2008, 01:19:33 AM »
For what it's worth, I believe that you are generally a product of the environment in which you are brought up.

I think that it is fair to say that in the UK and Aust we have not been brought up in a climate of handguns nor for any gun to be really freely available.

I have my own views about handguns and they concur with Steve.

That said, I don't necessarily disagree with others point of view - from their standpoint/upbringing and like Steve, guns fascinate me.

I have had a number of 'discussions' with someone who was rather close to me. The upshot is that she was born and raised in the US and believed one thing, while I believed another. In the end, I found that nothing was achieved in such discussions - I couldn't change her viewpoint, nor she, mine.

I humbly submit that each party here believes they are correct.

Can we agree to disagree?

It is getting me rather depressed.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 01:37:32 AM by aussie »

Offline steve hawkins

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2008, 02:54:56 AM »
I will agree to disagree.  

I think the point that got me started was that this is a BMW motorbike forum and not a weapons forum.  This thread and others have recently started to discuss firearms in a way that I am uncomfortable with and perhaps, not appropriate for this forum.  

And since this forum is international, I will present a different view.

Finally, as a slight clarification, I would like to mention knives in the UK.  

Its all about intent.  

If you are going sailing/fishing/hiking and are carrying a multi-purpose knife that is in appropriate with the sporting activity, then you will have no problem, unless when stopped you say it is for self defense.  Then you will be arrested.

If you go for a picnic and have a carving knife in the basket to cut the cake/bread, then you will be okay, unless when stopped you say it is for self defense.  Then you will be arrested.

If you go to school, shopping or any public place with any knife, including a craft knife, you could well be arrested.  Unless you have just bought the knife set from the shops.  This is to stop kids carrying knives for bullying etc.

In the UK our ancesters killed all our wolves and bears hundreds of years ago.  You should not need to be carrying anything.  It suits me.

Perhaps its because I am European and have various dead relatives strewn across Europe over the last 100 years.  And the far East for that matter.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 03:12:03 AM by steve_hawkins »
Steve Hawkins R100 (that wants to be an R65)

trolle

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2008, 03:29:23 AM »
This discussion has underscored a point that Aussie brought up: that you are generally a product of the environment in which you are brought up. Historically USA is only 150 years away from the great struggle it must have been to civilize the west, whereas Europe was a thoroughly regulated society as early as 300 years ago.

This difference expresses itself in the attitude to firearms, in the attitude to the role of the state and in many other ways, and as far as I know, there is a marked difference in attitudes to firearms between the Eastcoast at one side and the South and West of USA on the other side due to the different histories of these parts.

As I always seek to compromise between differing opinions, I as others in this forum will agree on disagreeing. As I read the postings we all agree on one thing, which is the right to defend one's family and one self.

BTW I have been trained  in shooting with all kind of guns from the 0.22 caliber to 155 mm howitzers and have always enjoyed the challenge of hitting the target. But as said before I do not want to own a gun, unless it was for hunting, which I do not do, or for target shooting, which I do not do either.

I find the r65 forum the most enjoyable and interesting forum with the nicest people and think that  a good discussion with good friends with viewpoints differing from mine one of the perks of life.

greetings from a dark, cold, wet north, took a ride yesterday, nice!


Offline MrRiden

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2008, 02:35:23 PM »
 [smiley=lurker.gif] Told ya.
rich
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Offline nhmaf

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2008, 04:15:23 PM »
Rich,

It had been a while since we had a "good" oil or tire thread  ;)
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline msbuck

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2008, 06:46:55 PM »
I will not even touch on the subject of guns, but I have to admit that as I read this thread, I am happy with the way folks on the forum behave towards each other.  With respect.  This is the reason this forum is such a good one.  I can only imagine what kind of flaming COULD have happened here, but it didn't.

I just love you 'guys' and this wonderful place to meet, share thoughts and bat around ideas.  Thanks for being gracious to one another and 'agreeing to disagree'!  :-*
A?da
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Offline Justin B.

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2008, 07:41:00 PM »
Yes, it's probably about time to stick a fork in this topic.  I probably should have split it off to the "rant" section and if anybody else would like to flog (not in the Brit sense of the word)  the topic then I'll still split it off...
Justin B.

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1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline Semper Gumby

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Re: Good day for voting (And riding) !
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2008, 07:51:25 AM »
Quote
[smiley=lurker.gif] Told ya.
rich
Keeping his excellent and undeniably correct opinion to his self.



 :D 8-)
Bill Gould ?1980/03 R65 When at first you don't succeed....Moo!