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Author Topic: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance  (Read 7464 times)

Offline badbmwbrad

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New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« on: August 17, 2019, 11:13:02 AM »
[size=14]This bike was just purchased by a friend from a used bike dealer.  It has 30,000 miles.  There were some cob webs found on it during inspection! 

It's an exceptionally original, unmolested example which has BMW panniers, liners, tool kit and owner's manual.

Thanks to this forum, we were able to eliminate most of the engine vibration by torquing the engine's mounting fasteners to ~45 ft-lbs.  The right-hand carb throttle and choke cable were too tight which caused a high idle RPM condition. 

After we adjust valves and synchronize carbs, any residual handlebar vibration will hopefully be removed by bar-end weights (or fill them with lead shot). 

My friend also has a 1983 R80RT with the same 32 mm carbs that have been rebuilt.  The RT also has an electronic ignition.
He wants to swap out the R65's components with there items.  What could go wrong?  Is the carb jetting or ignition timing different?

Also, if the original bean can is to be used, is there any advantage to applying new heat sink paste to its underside where it mounts on the chain case? 
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Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 09:36:34 PM »
[size=14]We adjusted the valves and synchronized the carburetors.  Engine mounts were torqued to ~45 ft-lbs.  Most of the engine vibration is gone The handlebars are still buzzing however.

When the throttle is briefly cracked open, the engine revs but is slow to return to idle.  It hovers at 2000 RPM for several seconds before settling to 1400 RPM.  This bike has a bean can.  I'm thinking the centrifucal spark advance flyweights are sticking open or the return springs are weak.
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 09:37:30 PM by badbmwbrad »

Offline wilcom

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 10:30:47 PM »
Quote
[size=14] I'm thinking the centrifucal spark advance flyweights are sticking open or the return springs are weak.[/size]

Idle should be closer to 1000rpm. When you are experiencing high idle return, take a long screw driver and push down on both throttles at the carb and the choke levers to make sure there is not a tight cable hanging up.
Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1982 BMW R65LS
1979 R65
1980 R65
1982 R80RT
1974 R90/6
1972 R75
1964 R50/2
19xx R27
ZX-11

Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 08:35:03 PM »
[size=14]We verified the throttle cables and choke cables are not hanging up when the throttle grip is turned fully forward.[/size]

Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 04:04:47 PM »
[size=13]An electronic ignition trigger has been ordered.  This will replace the bean can and hopefully resolve the elevated-idle-RPM condition which persisted even after we balanced the carbs, verified the throttle butterfly valves and choke plates were in their normal positions (control cables not tight). 

The Alpha electronic ignition is supplied by Motorrad Elektrik.
 It is a Hall-effect-triggered unit.  Euro Motoelectric has an EnDuraLast ignition which is triggered by an optical sensor.
 Installation process for Alpha is simple.  The EnDuraLast is more complicated to install.
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« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 04:06:09 PM by badbmwbrad »

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 05:05:29 PM »

I spent a bit of time reading through your posts. It is clear that you have been spending a lot of time researching, which is a good thing. Unfortunately, some of your efforts have been wasted reading the wrong things. I read recently that one of the problems of the internet is that deluge of opinions it allows. Opinions are like butt-holes in that everyone has one, the internet allows all those opinions to get out there. Sadly some opinions are less worthy than others and some are not worth the time taken to read them. So, here are some more opinions for you.

There is no point in putting heat paste on the beancan where it mounts to the timing case. I'm not going to spend time on this one, it is just plain wrong.... It is a hold over from the original ICU to heatsink mount - the heat sink paste would disappear causing the ICU to overheat, which would cause all sorts of odd symptoms until it died of cooking itself. You were supposed to renew the paste every year or so, but there should not be too many of those original ICU and heatsink combinations out there anymore. The second generation ICU is capable of switching much higher current than the original and is rivetted to the heatsink.

Be aware that the different versions of the ICU work best with different  ignition coils, the take home is that the later version can run just about any coil, even the original  6volt in series "can" coils.

The Emerald Isle (Alpha) system is not, as far as I can find out, as tolerant as far as coils go as the Version 2 "std" ICU, best to stick with the current edition BMW/Bosch coil or its functional equivalents from people such as Dyna.

You have a 1982 edition which may be afflicted with the dreaded "crack-o-matic" grey coil. There is truth in the old BMW jungle saying "if coil is grey - throw it away".

If you have a crack-o-matic it will have already cracked which means that if you go for a ride on a rainy day you bike will stop, and then after a night in a warm dry garage, it will go again - till next time.

You cannot exchange the EI (Alpha) ICU with the "std" ICU - you will get a spark, but will have no advance/retard.  If it worries you, buy a spare.

The Alpha Ignition system is manufactured by Emerald Isle, around the world it is sold under its own name, as the Alpha, also Red-Centre and other names. It is a brilliant bit of kit (I have one myself as a recent buy) as it does two things that addresses things that  BMW want kicking for not doing with the original beancan electronic ignition, namely incorporating the ignition advance into the ICU instead of using steam age bob-weights and making the hall effect device a "cassette" installation that allows replacement in minutes rather than hours.

EME, market good quality alternate parts to support the OEM beancan ignition, they also market an optically triggered, crankshaft mounted (on the end of the alternator) which has a good in-service reputation. I harbour doubts in respect to optical triggered systems, being on of hundreds of people who had bad experiences with the (in)famous Piranha optically triggered ignition system in the 80/90s. There is a surprising amount of general crud and oil mist floating around under the front cover which ensured unexpected  "failure to proceed" and the need to remove the cover and wipe the optics clean on a regular basis.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2019, 08:52:31 PM »
[size=13] An Alpha V.3 was purchased from Motorrad Elektrik to replace the BMW bean can ignition control unit.  My understanding is this is manufactured by Emerald Isle.  the new ignition has not yet been delivered.  The optically-triggered EME ignition had a lot of installation instructions which looked to be challenging.   

My friend complains that his R65 has a supremely uncomfortable seat.  It's like sitting on two-by-four framing lumber.  He also complains the bike vibrates excessively above 60 MPH.  We rode together at about 60 MPH for a few hours.

The engine motor mounts have already been torqued to 45 foot-pounds.   I recommended that he should install an engine guard (removed from his 1983 R80RT.  This will change the natural frequency of the frame to a frequency which is not a harmonic of the engine vibration frequency.  The intent is to reduce potential for resonant vibration.

If this is unsuccessful then a more intrusive vibration-reduction method may be possible.  I'm hoping his R80's final drive unit (rear bevel drive) will fit onto the R65 rear wheel.  The respective bike's driveshafts are different lengths but if their bevel drives are interchangeable then there is some merit in making the swap.  The R80 bevel drive should have a taller ratio such that when installed on the R65, the engine R
pM for a given road speed will be lower.  Of course, the acceleration and top speed would be adversely affected but the vibration should be lower and fuel economy would probably improve.  has anybody tried this swap?

The handlebars also vibrate a lot above 60 MPH so he's installing a pair of bar-end weights to change the bar's natural frequency.

One of the two Brembo front brake disc rotors is slightly warped.  It doesn't cause the brake caliper to become hot and it causes a mild pulsation in the front brake hand-lever when the bike is nearly stopped.  I'd disposition the condition accept-as-is.

The engine idle speed (RPM) is elevated but the idle RPM can be temporarily lowered by using the clutch to drag down the engine.  A new ignition unit should fix this.




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Offline ged in oz

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 03:20:12 AM »
Regarding your high idle, I recently had a similar issue after I fitted a new timing chain, thus disturbing the bean can and timing position. I didn’t have a zenon strobe light initially so I reset the timing only roughly at where it had been before.

The idle was fine when cold but after warming up with 10 minutes running it would idle at 2000 rpm and then take about 20 seconds before it dropped back to 1200 rpm. Accurately resetting the timing position with a strobe light corrected the issue. It might have some relevance for your problem.

I have read that using the clutch to drag the idle down will eventually wear your clutch plate out.

I’ve had a few issues with (subtle) vibrations, but they tend to be a bit transient and come and go with rpm and tuning changes. I’d be inclined to go through the check list of tuning issues, valve clearances, carb settings and balance, ignition timing (particularly) etc etc and then assess the situation.

I’ll leave someone else to comment on the R80 FD changeover, but my experience with the R65 is that it really likes to rev. The best advice that I was given is to keep it bubbling between 4K and 5K rpm where it really comes alive.

The seat? I’m more to used to ‘80s Ducati seats, (which are actual planks!) but I’ve done a few 6 hour days now in the R65 saddle and I find it supremely comfortable.

Good luck with it.

Offline Barry

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 04:40:58 AM »
Quote
he engine motor mounts have already been torqued to 45 foot-pounds.   I recommended that he should install an engine guard (removed from his 1983 R80RT.  This will change the natural frequency of the frame to a frequency which is not a harmonic of the engine vibration frequency.  The intent is to reduce potential for resonant vibration.


Good thinking.  I agree the amplitude of the vibration can be reduced by addressing the frame resonance frequency. You can also alter the coupling between engine and frame. There was an aftermarket rubber engine mount option but I had some success simply by reducing the engine mount torque settings. I used the lower torque settings of the 85 on model R65 although I forget the exact figures.  It moved the vibration period up the rev range so that I'm now silky smooth up to 4500 RPM.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 04:41:55 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 06:09:14 AM »
[size=13]Thanks for the tip.  We'll inspect the coil and will likely replace a grey-colored coil preemptively. 

We're taking a multi-state tour from Cape Cod (New England) to West Virginia next month and it will definitely rain.  I don't want to be stuck on the side of the road with a dead motorcycle because if his bike engine dies then we're both stuck.
 
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Quote
You have a 1982 edition which may be afflicted with the dreaded "crack-o-matic" grey coil. There is truth in the old BMW jungle saying "if coil is grey - throw it away".

If you have a crack-o-matic it will have already cracked which means that if you go for a ride on a rainy day you bike will stop, and then after a night in a warm dry garage, it will go again - till next time.

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 10:38:20 AM »
Hello,
If it was my bike, I would note at what RPM the vibration are the worst. Then I would balance the carb at that same RPM. You'll be surprised to find them unbalanced ....
Of course, the carbs, valves and ignition must be spot on before .... But I'm sure you'll already know that...

Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 07:23:31 AM »
[size=14]Installation of the engine cylinder guards and torquing the engine mounting nuts to 50 ft-lbs helped further reduce the vibration but it's still not a highway bike.  I'm looking into use of rubber elastomers on the front engine mount to further reduce the vibration.  The bar-end weights have not been installed yet.[/size]

Offline badbmwbrad

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 07:34:47 PM »
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0173339?isPunchout=false  [size=14]Do you think a stack of these sealing washers in place of the front engine mount spacers reduce engine vibration?
 
They appear to be Belleville spring washers.  I would sandwich some solid rubber washers between the sealing washers to attain this profile:  ( | | | )
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Offline Barry

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 03:32:04 AM »
To me they look like flat washers with rubber bonded on but they might be worth a try. Bear in mind that when the aftermarket rubber mounts were available the engine still wasn't really isolated by rubber spacers.  There was still metal to metal contact between the frame and the mounting bar and between the mounting bar and the engine. All that the rubber spacers did is reduce the clamping force betwen frame and engine and allow a slight amount of lateral movement. And that only at the front mount. 
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: New-to-Me 1982 R65 Maintenance
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2019, 08:51:48 AM »
Hello,
On those BMW, the engine help the frame being strength (?, spelling ? ) if you make the liaison soft, you'll interact with the frame properties in a bad way.   
If you want to remove engine vibration, ensure the carbs are properly tuned. If this is not sufficient, you'll have to improve the balance of the moving parts, but playing with the softness of the engine mounts is a bad idea.
just my 2 ¢ (and do not ask how I know this...  :-?