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Author Topic: Another Question About Fuel  (Read 2064 times)

Crossrodes

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Another Question About Fuel
« on: May 02, 2008, 08:39:55 AM »
The owners manual for my '79 R65 says that I should run premium fuel.  However when I removed the plugs last fall just after I bought it I noticed that they were carboned up....Either the bike had been running too rich or it didn't need premium fuel.  So I have been running regular gas (87 octane) and have not noticed any pinging.  

What grade of gas do you run if you have an R65?


Offline nhmaf

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 01:56:55 PM »
I usually use the regular or mid-grade stuff, octane rating (R+M) from 87 - 90 in my 82 R65LS.
There is no need to run the high octane fuel unless you are getting pinging.  As some
areas have poorer fuel quality than others, or some places calculate the octane rating differently,
 if you do hear the sound of pinging it is best to try a different brand or rating of fuel.
The R65 will usually do fine on regular octane gas provided it is tuned up.  It sounds like you may need
to lean out your mixture a bit.   IF you go too far, then you will start to hear pinging under higher engine
load situations, and should dial the mixture back to the rich side a bit.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Rob Valdez 79 R65

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 03:34:13 PM »
I run regular in my '79 ('80 engine).

What kind of spark plug are you using?  


Anyone - would too cold of a plug cause carbon build-up?  Maybe he needs a hotter plug?  (just guessing, Crossrodes)

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 07:14:21 PM »
I am not an expert, but I would associate a too-cold plug with a blackened or significant deposits on the center insulator, but not
heavy carbon deposits all over, not on the well sides and electrode.   If everything is covered with carbon buildup (but not oil/burnt oil residue)
I'd say that the mixture was way too rich.   The plug temperature is usually just about ideal if it can "keep its nose clean", e.g. the insulator and
center electrode appear fairly clean, with a tan or slightly white-ish color to the insulator.  This means the insulator is staying hot enough to prevent
deposits from accumulating - they are burning off before they can stick on it.

If Crossrodes will specify the plug brand and number we'll know one way or the other !
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Justin B.

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 07:47:51 PM »
I believe the heat range of a plug has more to do with how it gets rid of heat, not how hot of a spark it provides.  The spark plug needs to get up to a specific temperature range to run clean.  At least, that is what I think I remember from years ago reading on the subject...  If the plug is sooty then for some reason things are too rich - stuck choke/enricher, slide needle in the wrong notch, clogged air filter, etc.
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline montmil

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2008, 12:02:44 PM »
Quote
I believe the heat range of a plug has more to do with how it gets rid of heat, not how hot of a spark it provides.  The spark plug needs to get up to a specific temperature range to run clean.  At least, that is what I think I remember from years ago reading on the subject...  If the plug is sooty then for some reason things are too rich - stuck choke/enricher, slide needle in the wrong notch, clogged air filter, etc.

Believe Justin is correct on his assessment of the spark plug's "dissipating heat" requirements. If you ever have the opportunity to do so, look at how far out from the plug body some insulator tips are positioned. Others are closer to the plug body. Different plug heat ranges drive the plug's design and construction.

That being said, I'd probably try one step hotter plug if I was pretty sure the carbs and intake components are spot on. IMHO.
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

not-so-fast-ed

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2008, 09:12:09 PM »
Aren't the usual plugs the Bosch W7DC?  Any different for long trips?  In my youth we used to pull the "normal" plugs & replace with a cooler heat range set when touring in the Summer.  Currently only have 400 miles on the Mono and was wondering.  Any hints?
Thanks,
Ed

ps... still waiting for a replacement ignition switch to arrive from Germany.   :-/

Crossrodes

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2008, 08:19:01 PM »
The plugs in there now are NGK BPR 7ES.  According to the NGK website these are the correct plugs for this bike.

Now keep this in mind...this bike was built for the German market and later imported to Canada.  I have the original German language owners manual.  It specifies plugs I can't find anywhere on the net:  Bosch W 225 T 30, Beru 225/14/3 A, or Champion N 6 Y.  Someone wrote in the German book W5D next to the Bosch number.  This correlates to the NGK number that is currently installed (BPR 7ES).

Interestingly I bought an English language owners manual from my dealer and it specifies Bosch W5D, Beru 14-5 D, Champion N 6 Y.

I'm guessing that back in '79 when this bike was built (if not today) European gasoline formulations were different than North American formulations hence the different plug requirements.  

I'm guessing that I have the right plugs installed.  Any other guesses out there?

Crossrodes

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2008, 08:20:27 PM »
Is there a write up anywhere on tuning and balancing the Bing carbs?

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2008, 10:14:36 PM »
I generally have good results with NGK plugs, I'll have to check the plug numbers on my bike.  I will strongly recommend that you
NOT use Champion sparkplugs in your bike, however - never had any good experiences with them in any motorcycle or car I owned.

There are lots of sources of info on airhead carb adjusting, some of which is at least a little bit contradictory.   In the end, it isn't all as "black magic" as it may sound, but there is some trial and error, and it can take a while to develop the right "ear" for it, as even when adjusting multi-carb engines with a set of mercury gauges or rotameters it still helps greatly to have have a sense, or "ear" for how the engine is running.

Some useful (and even more wordy than me, and wiser) info can be found on snowbum's website at this link:
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/techindex.htm

The Bing manual (can be ordered in the U.S.A for around $10, I think) from the Bing agency's website has some useful tuning info, though I have found that the procedure which they describe is not the best written process, it is technically accurate.  Bing website is:
http://www.bingcarburetor.com/

Have you had the carbs apart for cleaning or adjustment before ?   I *think* that you have type 64 Bing carbs on your bike ... IF the carbs are clean and otherwise properly adjusted for balance with some sort of gauge set, one would turn the mixture screw (bottom/underside of carb near the center and toward the "front"(mouth going into the head) clockwise (as viewed from the screw head/lying on the ground) to allow more air/less fuel (lean mixture).    First, make sure the bike is warmed up by going for a 10 minute ride around the neighborhood before returning to your garage - don't ever try to adjust carbs with a less-than-fully-warmed engine or you'll get unsatisfactory results. Don't turn these mixture screws by very much at a time, and try to do both sides by the same amount.  I use the "width" or thickness of the screwdriver blade as an increment of rotation.  For starters, I would try turning it SLOWLY by maybe 1/8 or not more than 1/4 turn, while the engine is running, and listening for changes to idle speed. You want both sides to be running equally strong, and the smoothness of the idle - judging by a trained ear- can be almost as effective as a set of gauges, and in some ways, more useful.  One might have to readjust the idle speed after this, and likely the gauges will have to be reconnected to recheck/rebalance the carbs.   since many of us don't have exhaust gas analyzers or the sometimes helpful "colortune" spark plug thingie it is very helpful to put in a fresh/new set of sparkplugs so you  can "read" them to help
judge if you've made an improvement in the mixture.  After making some adjustments and checking carb balance, one takes the bike out for a road test to check throttle response, noticing any "flat spots" in power delivery, pinging, etc.   IF these occur then one might have gone slightly too lean, for example, and have to richen the mixture back by tweaking the screw one or two "increments" back anti-clockwise.

If you haven't had the valve clearances checked/adjusted it would be best to do that first before messing with the carbs, as valve clearances affect the mixture flow rate through the carbs, and thus the balancing of the carbs.  However, valve clearance doesn't have any impact on how rich the mixture is.   Your fuel mileage is probably significantly lower than what it could be, with a better, leaner mixture, without going excessively lean.

What do you have for airhead manuals available ?
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Crossrodes

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2008, 11:48:38 PM »
Thanks for the info NHMAF.  I've added that website to my favourites.  Good tip on the valve adjustment by the way.  I had planned to do that also and I'll do it before I adjust the carbs.

The manual I have is a Clymer R50 through R100GS PD (1970-1996).  

Offline hoverdog

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2018, 12:50:46 PM »
Quote
I usually use the regular or mid-grade stuff, octane rating (R+M) from 87 - 90 in my 82 R65LS.
There is no need to run the high octane fuel unless you are getting pinging.  As some
areas have poorer fuel quality than others, or some places calculate the octane rating differently,
 if you do hear the sound of pinging it is best to try a different brand or rating of fuel.
The R65 will usually do fine on regular octane gas provided it is tuned up.  It sounds like you may need
to lean out your mixture a bit.   IF you go too far, then you will start to hear pinging under higher engine
load situations, and should dial the mixture back to the rich side a bit.
What about the (UK) unleaded converted heads? Do they have any bearing on the octane rating of the fuel to be used?
Present:
1981 R65LS

Past:?
2003 R850R
1995 R80
1982 R100RS
1981 R65

Offline Barry

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2018, 03:49:48 PM »
The high compression Euro engines prior to 1985 supposedly require 98 Ron but I find if the combustion chambers and piston top are reasonably clean it will run on run on 95 without pinging. Whether or not the valve seats have been converted for unleaded is not going to make any difference to pinging.

95 Ron is approx. equivalent to 90 R + M
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 03:55:27 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Another Question About Fuel
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2018, 02:58:11 AM »
Hello
In Europe, we are getting 95E10 which is, as Barry said, 95Ron plus 10% Ethanol.
In France, I can get either 95 or 98. The latter is 98 Ron and both are at less than 5% ethanol.
I've made some tests to use 95E10 as this will become the sole fuel available some time in future.
The results are that you need a slight change of jetting and that the mileage will be poorer. Given the price tag difference, I run 98 in the bike and as I'm a belt and suspender guy, add some lead substitute into it...
The cost per km is the same with 98 as it is with 95E10. Given the current French prices at the moment.
Of course your mileage may/will vary.  :)
Hope this helps
P.S. : the bike runs perfectly on 95 or 95E10 (this one with the modified jetting) so you can go for such fuels. And my bike is an European 1982 R65 so needing "the best fuel" ...