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Author Topic: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?  (Read 1844 times)

Offline jjwithers

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84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« on: November 03, 2017, 05:07:48 PM »
I have a complete 1984 R65 engine.

I have a matching numbers 1979 bike.  The 79 bike's top end is gone, and been open/exposed for years (although in a garage).  I'm not sure the condition of the crank and bearings... so I'm wondering if all the guts from the 84 engine would swap into the 79? 
Or were there any changes in design or spigot sized or anything else i should be aware of?

Offline wilcom

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 05:31:54 PM »
Quote
I have a complete 1984 R65 engine.

Why not put the complete 1984 motor in the 1979 frame? 
Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1982 BMW R65LS
1979 R65
1980 R65
1982 R80RT
1974 R90/6
1972 R75
1964 R50/2
19xx R27
ZX-11

Offline jjwithers

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 05:44:17 PM »
Quote
Why not put the complete 1984 motor in the 1979 frame? 
Matching numbers.  I want to keep the registration process simple for and keep the bike matching for the next owner.

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 06:19:26 PM »
Quote
Quote
Why not put the complete 1984 motor in the 1979 frame? 
Matching numbers.  I want to keep the registration process simple for and keep the bike matching for the next owner.


Firstly, let me say very clearly that the whole "matching numbers" business is complete and utter tripe. BMW frequently put bikes out the door with non-matching numbers - the result of (for example) a frame being defected, or an engine not coming up to spec. If you have matching numbers on a bike - Yay, but it means absolutely nothing.
 
 This sort of nonsense is perpetuated by the same mob who a few years ago got hold of production records and discovered that certain gearbox number sequences were manufactured by BMW and some by specialist gearbox manufacturer Getrag. The drivel then peddled was that "genuine" BMW gearboxes are better than Getrag manufactured ones - a complete nonsense and akin to saying "my Romanian (guest workers) are better than your Romanians.

Ok, now I have that off my chest, if you really, really must do it, all of your 1984 internals will fit in 1979 cases.

BUT, I'd be very sure that you have the tools, knowledge and skill to do this, else the outcome is likely to be two sets of engine cases (and their innards) open to the elements and decaying.
 
The cylinder heads on the 1984 have bigger valves than the 1979 so they will be "non genuine", likewise the 1984 barrels will have a Nicasil liner whereas "genuine" 1979 ones are iron bore. The 1984 pistons have a slightly higher deck height above the top ring to increase compression - non "genuine" again.

The 1979 beancan will house points whereas the 1984 one will have a hall effect trigger. I am old and cynical now and am no longer in love with the wonderous concept of electronic ignition as I once was - I would use the points. If you don't want to use points, your cheapest alternative would be a Boyer Bransden ignition system and the points beancan. To use the later Hall effect you will need to buy the connecting harness ($AU65 - I've bought one in the recent past) an ignition control unit and a more modern coil (and given that this is to "genuine" you are looking at around $AU200 for the "genuine" coil for the hall effect ignition, Dyna coils are about half the price and have a better reputation  for longevity, but the original 6 volt in series coils will still be working when Christ comes again - they are also "genuine" for the 1979.

All the engine bits will happily fit in the 1979 cases.

The other differences to be aware of is that the 1979 engine has the older "heavy" flywheel, whereas the 1984 uses the skeleton "clutch carrier". As the gearbox has a different protrusion distance to match either the flywheel or the clutch carrier - if you are using a 1979 gearbox you will need the flywheel, if using a 1981 or later gearbox you need the light weight clutch carrier.

If it were me i would simply put the 1984 engine (with 79 flywheel if needed) into the bike and then liberally lubricate the 79 engine internals, throw in some long term inhibitor and then plastic wrap it. Then if one day in the future a 1979 R65 is worth more than a 1984 R65 and the then owner wants to unlock that extra cash - then they can do the work then.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline wilcom

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 06:46:49 PM »
Quote
I want to keep the registration process simple for


Register the bike NOW before you work on it and pour money into it. Your title will come back with matching numbers no matter which way you go ,,,, and if there is any issue with the title you find out BEFORE you sweat and spend $$$$
Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1982 BMW R65LS
1979 R65
1980 R65
1982 R80RT
1974 R90/6
1972 R75
1964 R50/2
19xx R27
ZX-11

Offline BPT

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 07:19:06 PM »
Sounds like Tony has outlined quite a few differences that, while it will work, sounds like it might make a lot of work (and $$). 

I have nowhere near the knowledge to know much of that but I think that the *possible* positives to having everything match wouldn't increase the value enough to make up for the time and cash you'd have to put into it.

It might be a better selling point to do as he said and clean up the matching one and sell it as a bonus along with the bike and it's currently installed "Modernized" version.   ;)      

I know that some do look for or consider it better to have the matching numbers but if you check prices on the R65's I don't think you'd get enough of a premium to make it worth it.

I've got no idea about registration since that can vary greatly throughout the world.
1983 R65 w/ Velorex 562 Sidecar

Offline Justin B.

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 07:42:04 PM »
I'm pretty sure that in TX they go by the frame number/sticker.  I'm of the same opinion as the others, just swap in the newer engine.

That being said if you want to mix and match you'll likely run into a few difficulties.  I seem to remember reading somewhere there is a slight difference in the later model vs early model jugs and some grinding or machining is required.
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 08:04:54 PM »
Quote
  I seem to remember reading somewhere there is a slight difference in the later model vs early model jugs and some grinding or machining is required.

I have - 1984 bottom end with 1979 "iron bore" barrels, 1979 pistons and post 1981 (albeit that they have been ported to an inch of their lives) heads.

The "hodge-podge" above went together with no machining required, I used the 1979 pistons because of their slightly lower compression and having measured the heads they had been skimmed and the amounts roughly cancelled each other out. I could have used post 1981 pistons, but then I would be forced to run the poor old thing on 98 octane(RON) instead of the 91 Octane I feed it presently.

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline jjwithers

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 09:52:49 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.  The seller told me it was an '84 but the VIN on the engine points to an '82LS engine.

CA recently started requiring engine numbers on the title as well as frame numbers.  So now they all match what is on the title.
When they don't match what is on the title, it usually requires an appointment to the CHP for them to verify that nothing is stolen.

Anyhow... Each engine would need a rebuild anyway. 
I might as well rebuild it back into the matching number block/frame. 
I'm fully aware of the costs involved and I can do it myself although I'm about to get a back surgery so I might take this to my local BMW guru to do the work. 
The bike will be built up for a friend and he'll pay for it.

I just wanted to make sure my bits will swap over. 

-Josh

Offline Justin B.

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 11:18:08 PM »
Tony - Didn't read anything about going lined jugs into later block it was about putting Nika-Sil jugs into an older block.  Old-age is causing me to get fuzzy on a lot of things and not sure if it was an r65 or just boxers in general.

OK, just found it on snowbums site.  You can't use jugs later than 1984...

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/pistons.htm
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:22:27 PM by admin »
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2017, 12:03:15 AM »
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Tony - Didn't read anything about going lined jugs into later block it was about putting Nika-Sil jugs into an older block.  Old-age is causing me to get fuzzy on a lot of things and not sure if it was an r65 or just boxers in general.

OK, just found it on snowbums site.  You can't use jugs later than 1984...

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/pistons.htm

I think you will find that only applies to the 99mm spigot bore blocks and cylinders. The R65 was/is always "the same but different". In fact the R65 always had the "O" groove on the cylinder base - there is no step of post 1984/5 R65 cylinders - a fact you can verify by the fact that the Part No. did not change from 1981 to end of days.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2017, 03:05:35 AM »
Quote
Thanks for all the replies.  The seller told me it was an '84 but the VIN on the engine points to an '82LS engine.


The bulk changes to the 1979 engine occurred in the 1981 year model, there were some detail changes, but none that would effect you, except the possibility that the 1982 heads will have the overly hard seats, but given the age of the thing now if that was ever a problem, it has probably been addressed by now.




1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2017, 03:25:38 AM »
Hello,
I don't know about your exact part of the world, but an after 1981 R65 engine is 5 HP more powerful than a '79...
Here in France, it would make the mixing legally impossible without a new certification for road worthiness process which is more than $$$ ...
But who will check a bike more than 30 years old having a third of the horsepower of any decent today's bike ?

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: 84 engine bits into a '79 case?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2017, 05:13:01 AM »
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But who will check a bike more than 30 years old having a third of the horsepower of any decent today's bike ?

Exactly the view I am taking when the 860cc kit is fitted. My new engineering motto is "yesterday's technology - tomorrow".
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |