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Author Topic: Suddenly won't start!  (Read 3857 times)

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2016, 09:27:26 PM »
Quote
I just spent the day cleaning the carbs.  Complete tear-down, cleaning and back together.  The carbs were definitely dirty, the left quite a bit worse with lots of gunk around the atomizer of the main jet.

Once back on the bike, with the battery back from a fresh charge, no joy.

Cranked with full choke, heard a tiny stumble, then lonely cranking with no fire.

Immediately checked the plugs and found them bone dry.  Carb float bowls both full.

There is no question that the spark I'm seeing is pretty weak.  I had to go out at 9 PM to see anything at all.  A new coil is on the now urgent list.  

But why am I getting no gas in the cylinders with full float bowls and clean carbs?


Ok, let's assume that the spark you have is enough to get the bike running. It may not be, but I cannot see the spark to pass judgment.

BUT

It was running, you laid hands on the carbs. now it doesn't run.

Carbs seem the place to start.

As I said yesterday, are you sure what is in the carb bowls is petrol?

If it is and the bowls are filling normally, then you are either not drawing enough fuel into the engine to fire, or alternatively you are getting so much petrol in there it can't fire.

You said the plugs were dry so let's go with no petrol.

Query, what did you lay hands on?

The smartest thing to do might be to simply take everything off that you took off before and put it all back together CAREFULLY.

Did you touch the enrichener valves? Dit you put the left one back on the left side? If you pulled the enrichener valves apart - did they go back togther EXACTLY as they came apart?

In the float bowls, locate the idle jet (in the bottom corner) Stick a straw attached to a can f something like CRC or WD40  down the hole in the sideo fth ebowl and see if whatever is in the can squirts everywhere our of the idle jet when you press the button.


It didn't? Why not? You were not in there with metal polish were you and neatly clogged up your idle jet did you?

If the idle jets are clogged do not succumb to the rumour that they are removable - I have tried to remove 3 in my lifetime - 1 came out, two jammed and broke off the head of the jet - I stopped ever tying again. A nice stiff bristle from a laundry scrubbing brush is sufficient to probe the jet hole and with the aid of some crb cleaner - get it going again.

Next, did you take the slide needles out to have a look at them? If so, when you put them back did you make sure that they were retained so that they would simply migrate to the interior of the slide thereby ensuring an impossibly rich mixture at every possible throttle opening?

Main jet and emulsion tubes - present and clear? Your brush bristle is about the hardest thing you should ever approach a carb jet or emulsion tube with. If some salesman once tricked you into buying a folder of devices called "jet cleaners" or something similar (and even more so if they have "knurled" ends) and you do not own a gas or kerosene welding/brazing/soldering kit - do yourself a favour and put them in the garbage - never, ever go near a carb jet or emulsion tube with anything made of metal.

when (if) you rmeoved th emainjets there would have been a silly looking big washer on the bottom, the sort of thing someone might put there if they lost the "proper" washer. Unfortunately it is actually the correct washer and it is important - if you removed it, put it back.

Moving back to the metal polish scenario - you may have to carefully check and clear every drilling in the carb body although frankly most of them would cause poor running if blocked and not actually prevent running at all, only a blocked jet or a wide open main jet (cause the needle is rattling around inside the slide) can do that.

When you find what you did, and "un-did" it, let us know please.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2016, 09:31:23 PM »
Sorry forgot the blasted idle mixture adjusters.

Did you touch them? I hope you didn't hog down on them when you put them back in - that would be bad.


Take the needle out - using the CRC and straw trick to the "airways" seem clear? If so, out the needles back in, run them in until they just touch the seat and then back them out 2 turns (which will be very rich, but you can adjust them later).



When you have done all that, if it still isn't running, get back to us and we will progress to the master class in cat disemboweling and the interpretation of scattered entrails.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline MikeFossl

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2016, 11:48:37 PM »
The bike wasn't running before I pulled the carbs (see post #1).  No fuel in the cyl with full choke led me to believe something was amiss with the carbs.  They were pulled apart and cleaned with carb cleaner, very carefully and with the help of Chris Harris (Youtube fame) to double check.  Left first, with no parts left over and then right.  I know I have a clear passage through the main jet into the venturi from a bowl full of fuel but somehow it doesn't make its way into the combustion chamber.  The fuel looks and smells like gas but in any case whatever it is doesn't get sucked into the engine.

 Tomorrow I pull the carbs again and see if the engine sucks and blows.

Why do I think this is something simple and stupid.

Argh!

1985 R65

thrang

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2016, 02:40:08 AM »
This is just one of those worth asking questions, did you connect the cables the right way round and not put the choke to the throttle.

Offline MikeFossl

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 01:55:34 PM »
Like they say, there are no stupid questions!

I just checked the resistance between the two coil towers: Infinite...

Since this problem happened overnight while the bike was sitting, I'm back to electrics as there is a single source to the problem.  It's unlikely that both carbs decided to give up at the same time.  

My new theory is that the problematic grey coil finally deteriorated to the point of no longer lighting up under compression.   Even now, it's still giving up the odd spark as the current jumps across multiple breaks in the winding's.  

A new Red Dynacoil is on order along with new leads and caps.  Since I'm getting some sparking  on the grounded open air plug when cranking, I'm assuming that the ECU and Hall effect trigger are working.

Can anyone confirm how to wire up the Red Dynacoil?

1985 R65

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2016, 02:24:06 PM »
Polarity on the primary circuit  terminals, doesn't seem to matter .
Only issue I had with my first DYNA coil, was when I positioned the terminals that go under the screws for the primary circuit, I had one sticking out away from the frame, and it touched the fuel tank and grounded out the coil, have the terminals pointing down .
Bike wouldn't start .
Also when you get the coil installed, you will notice how close one of the screw heads that hold the terminals to the coil is to either the steel laminate coil core, or the adapter plate, can't remember which, I used some heavy electrical tape to keep the two parts insulated from each other .
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 02:26:38 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline montmil

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2016, 09:13:28 PM »
Dyna Coil installation Instructions from Rick Jones Motorrad Elektrik/
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2016, 09:49:50 PM »
Here is a picture of mine
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline tunnelrider

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2016, 12:29:03 AM »
Hi Mike,

I presume on reinstalling the carbs after cleaning them out you've adjusted the cables to the proper settings.  If there's fuel getting to the cylinders it shouldn't be hard to smell it after cranking for a small amount.  If I couldn't smell fuel after trying to start something for a while that's where I'd be looking.  But I don't think this is your problem.

One experience I have had of backfiring on trying to start (a dirt bike) is that the spark plug was shorted out and tracking across the head.  I'd look carefully at your ignition components and make sure nothing is shorting to ground.  Can't help you about testing the circuit or bean can sorry.
'85 Black R65 / '74 GT185 / '83 Pantah 500 / '01 DRZ400 dirt only

Offline montmil

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2016, 02:02:42 PM »
The OEM Bosch gray and black Crack-O-Matic coil has proven to be problematic due to cracks forming in the plastic case. With the cracks, the coil will fail in damp or even high humidity conditions. Inspection is easy. Most often, the cracks form a circular pattern on the end of the coil. Infrequently, cracks develop longitudinally on the coil body.

The Dyna "brown' coil is the solution.

Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline MikeFossl

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2016, 08:44:21 AM »
My coil doesn't look too bad.  Wait...the third photo shows a distinct concentric crack on the left side.

Also, there was some black exudation in the corner between the laminated steel and the plastic housing.  I'm not sure what it's potted with but perhaps that's a sign of overheating.

Thanks for the details on installing the Dynacoil.  Looking forward to a fat blue spark!  Hopefully the "dirty carbs" was red herring.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 08:49:40 AM by mikefossl »
1985 R65

Offline MikeFossl

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2016, 08:31:30 PM »
And the winner is........bad coil!

Dyna coil  install went well.  Started right up.   Not happy with the supplied bracket but hey, I'm happy to here the engine running.  Cleaning the carbs can't have done much harm. :D
1985 R65

clonmore1

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Re: Suddenly won't start!
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2016, 02:03:18 AM »
V interesting and informative thread, I have learnt a lot from this!

Thank you

Mike

Glad your machine is up and running, enjoy the w/end rides