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Author Topic: Is THIS my first Airhead?  (Read 2687 times)

coffee_brake

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Is THIS my first Airhead?
« on: March 30, 2015, 11:00:42 PM »
I need a little help, because I'm at the very bottom of a learning curve for the R65.
OK maybe not the VERY bottom. I'm an experienced rider of mostly Japanese bikes, including early 80's vintage bikes, who does all her own wrenching and rides solo for long distances. I once had a modern BMW. My oilhead was a terrible bike and I hated it and it hated me, and that's all we need to say about that, except that the older Airheads have always had my attention. I mostly love the logo: simple by choice.

I thought I wanted a R90S but while researching that, I found the R65LS. Then one came up for sale near me by a long-time rider I know and trust:

((there are lots of awesome photos on a Craigslist post but I'm a newbie and not allowed to link to it yet))

Looks like it's 100% original except for some better calipers. I rode this bike today, in the rain. Obviously I did not lean it over or push it hard for either acceleration or braking in the wet conditions, somebody else's bike and all. It seemed all solid except the Brembo front brakes: they squealed like a pig at slaughter, even after I dried them off (by using them lightly till I was sure the pads and rotors were dry).
There's the sludgiest, slowest fuel leak out of the left (downhill) carb, which I expected. The plug wires might not be original (they are NGK, is that original on this bike?).
I really don't care about original, I just care about serviceable. Miles are 55k. Price is $3500 firm. Everything seems to be working fine.

What questions should I be asking right now?

The red charging light comes on at idle. Is this normal for this bike, of this era?

What are the pitfalls of a twin shock R65ls? Do they have certain parts that fail regularly? Can I expect to be able to just go ride the thing?

My other bikes are a Honda VFR700, a Bandit 1200, a Concours 1000, and a KLR250. All carbureted, all older technology, but all very good-handling bikes I can easily maintain myself and enjoy on twisty roads.

This R65LS seems like it will be more of a "standard" than anything else.
What should I be looking for? Yes, the paint is flawless but even if it's original, it won't stay that way. Seller has put less than a thousand miles on the bike in 7 years, but I ride the snot out of everything I own. It won't have pristine paint or anything else for long.

The only thing it needs right now are fork seals. I've done it on Japanese bikes and think it would be no big deal on this bike.

The calipers are bolt-on Brembo retro-fits but, like I said, squeal. No idea what to think about this. Seller is offering the original calipers as well, declaring that there are no rebuild kits available for them and that his attempts to clean and re-assemble didn't work.

How about the final drive and tranny? Can I expect good service from them?

Should the coils be red? I didn't pull the tank, but I can see the coils are made of red plastic. I actually do hope these are aftermarket because original coils and other ignition system components are kinda scary to take across state lines.

What should I be asking you folks right now?     [smiley=dankk2.gif]

coffee_brake

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 11:02:40 PM »
Gonna try to post the link with the photos on it...spam-free is a good thing.

coffee_brake

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2015, 11:03:49 PM »
Okey dokey, forum says two posts before links, so let's give this a try...

http://augusta.craigslist.org/mcy/4954854760.html

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 12:14:52 AM »
That is a very nice, tidy looking bike you have there.
The “red” coils if it is a single plastic encapsulated double ended coil, is probably a Dyna coil – if so this is a good thing. OTOH, if you have two separate red coloured cylindrical coils, they could be any bloody thing, which isn’t a problem providing the resistance is correct for the ignition trigger.
 
Your bike probably left the factory with a Bosch hall effect triggering system (combined with mechanical advance retard), before giving advice on the “correctness” of the coils, we need to know how they are triggered, i.e. points, stock hall effect, Boyer Bransden and numerous other after-market triggering options are out there.
 
The charge light being on at idle is both normal and a “design feature”. If your red light does not come on at idle, chances are that the bulb has failed (which interestingly means no charging BTW) or that something dire has happened. The good news is that the charging system, whilst a little weak kneed at only 280 watts on the best day it ever had, is just about as reliable as a ball pein hammer.

Squealing brakes is unusual and worse may be the result of a number of causes. If the brakes feel like they are working OK, I’d be inclined to throw a new set of pads into them and see if that makes the noise go away. If it does not, then there is an investigation process to follow.
 
Like everything else on a BMW the final drive and transmission are designed to give long and relatively trouble free lives, but do bear in mind it is now a 30+ years old motorcycle. The big thing with final drives is wear on the drive splines, usually the result of inadequate or incorrect lubrication, there is polite conjecture here at the moment as to the best method and cost of fixing drive splines, the only real consensus is that it is not cheap. Seals wear out but are replaceable by an adventurous owner.
Gearboxes that have not been abused and which have not had water sneak past an old or improperly fitted speedo cable boot tend to last a long, long time – the more so as it is the same gearbox fitted to the R65 as was fitted to far more powerful siblings. The only known issue is with the spring that provides the detent “feel”, this is a known failure item and is unfortunately a labour intensive fix as removing the gearbox involves first removing the rear sub-frame and swing-arm. Replacing the gearbox bearings etc is not a job usually tackled by the home mechanic as it requires special tools and precision measuring instruments (along with the practiced skills to use them). That said, in the Facebook airheads forum a Norwegian fellow has just done his own gearbox up successfully (they have a long winter) using material gleaned from the web and the input of more experienced group members.
Fork seals are easily replaced, in fact after the experience of some of the Japanese bikes in your stable, they will be a breeze. At the risk of admitting something I am a little embarrassed over, if you decide to remove your damper rods – you take them out via the bottom of the forks – well you can take them out via the top but you will never put them back in with all piston rings intact from the top.

Things to look out for.
Check for any knocks, grinds etc in the crank or bottom end – problems here are bluntly a sure sign of abuse  as given clean oil and not being thrashed the 247 bottom end should do at least 500,000km.
Valve gear noises should be investigated – mostly this will be ham handedness on the part of the owner, but there are some dire things that can happen.
Our beloved R65s for some reason are a little prone to dropping valves, my own view (not shared by some in this group) is to change exhaust valves at or before 50,000km (32,000miles). There are also some who suffer valve seat recession said to be the result of unleaded fuel. The thing is, not everybody has valve seat problems so I would definitely NOT spend money on replacement seats until and unless I found that I did have a problem.
Oil leaks – these are usually easily curable -  lipped seals at front and back of engine rarely give trouble, but cylinder bases will leak if they are allowed to “fret” due to failure to maintain cylinder head bolt tension. Pushrod seals will leak eventually, but they usually last long enough for you to be doing a top end refresh anyway.
Exhaust systems the chances are pretty small that you will have an original exhaust system still fitted, if you do, start saving for its inevitable replacement. The “gold” standard replacement exhaust system is stainless steel. The Australian made “Staintune” is the standout best as they are a copy of the original equipment externally, with small modifications to make them more free flowing without becoming loud. Next best is the English Kehin (spelling?) and after that who knows.

Shock absorbers – the original Boges should be placed in a box for posterity and replaced – I like Ikon (the now Australian owned Koni shock absorbers)
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 12:15:27 AM »
Shock absorbers – the original Boges should be placed in a box for posterity and replaced – I like Ikon (the now Australian owned Koni shock absorbers) others use Hagons, Wilbers, Fournales and a host of other brands. One brand I will comment on is the Spanish made Betor shock absorbers sold by Motobins (motobins.co.uk), The nicest comment is that out of the box they are betor than nothing, but not by much. However they are rebuildable by a home mechanic and use catalogue seals which means you can play with fluid weight and quantity. I have a friend who swears by them, I simply recall the time 30 years ago when I tried betor shocks and I swear at them. They are cheap though.
Cosmetics – many bits and pieces are no longer available new – dash boards, speedos, tacho etc. These parts do have some availability on the 2nd hand market but they are drying up as the population of R65s moves into the hands of long term owners and the available bits are snapped up.

On the subject of snapping thing up. I would like to buy your original ATE calipers if you are minded to sell them. Contrary to what you may have heard, they are in fact rebuildable, the only two parts needed are the internal seal and the dust seal. Given that rebuilding them inevitably means turning up a new set of pistons (the originals where chrome plated mild steel and they will be shot) the pistons are modified to use Brembo dust seals (which will actually fit anyway but you can make the process a little more “nice” by matching the Brembo dimensions). If you are interested drop me a PM and we can discuss price.


In conclusion,  the R65 is an honest and pretty reliable thing, capable of extraordinary long, trouble free mileage that demands only a little periodic maintenance, combined with sympathetic treatment in the right hand department. They are extraordinarily well supported by various interest groups and forums on the web and there are numerous outlets that supply parts at competitive prices.

Enjoy


And welcome to the asylum.


1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

coffee_brake

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 09:13:30 AM »
I appreciate the response. Very informative.
I can hear normal valve and pushrod noise at idle.

While riding, I could hear a bit more noise from what sounded like the top end, but it didn't sound..well, bad. It sounded like a clattery old motorcycle going through the gears.

Is the price about right? It really is all original and the paint is excellent. All the lights and buttons and things work. The sidestand is original as well (and terrifies me. Who the hell designed that leg trap?).

I'm not used to thinking about these bearings and seals and splines. My unit construction Japanese machines rarely fail.

I ride...uh...spiritedly. I don't like to over-rev the engine or do silly squid tricks but I like to take a fast pace on the twisty roads.
This bike pulled very well. I took it up to 4k rpm and I could tell it was coming alivel at that point.

So..the price is in line, considering the very good condition of the bike?



Offline donbmw

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 09:14:26 AM »
What makes you think the brake calipers have been change. 82 R65 came from the factory with Brembo calipers.

Don
1975 R90/6, 1980 R65, 1982 R65, 2015 Ural Patrol & 1959 Triumph TR3

coffee_brake

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 10:10:38 AM »
Quote
What makes you think the brake calipers have been change. 82 R65 came from the factory with Brembo calipers.

Don

That's what I'm wondering. After I saw the bike, with working Brembos on it, and the ones that the seller showed me that were on it before, I did some research and saw that Brembos were standard all along.

Either way, I just want to be sure I can make the squealing stop. It sounds awful.

Offline montmil

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 10:44:45 AM »
First off, I believe $3500.00 to be a very top dollar price for a 1982 R65 of any model. Some 'sperts may tell you the LS model is a collectible... this being a sales technique and usually in the mind of the seller.

As noted by Cajun Don, the Brembo brakes are OEM on all 1982 model R65s. Run your fingernail across the brake discs -both of 'em- and check just how deep those grooves are worn. The design and location of the holes in the discs create this wear pattern since altered by BMW Motrrad. Many R65ers have had good performance from EBC organic brake pads. Avoid metallics as they accelerate disc wear. BTW, there are sources for Brembo rebuild kits if you go this route. A good Scotchbrite scrubbing with carb cleaner, including the inside of the holes, may help de-squeal the brakes. That and a light sanding of the disc pads.

Valve train noise, aka: BMW music, will decrease as the engine reaches full operating temps... which may take up to 20 miles or so. This is kinda one of those, "They all do that" deals.

NGK plug caps are my personal gold standard.

You will learn that the side stand is not the prefered method of parking an Airhead. Carb leaks are not uncommon if the petcock is left in the on position. Smoky starts can occur as oil may collect in the left side cylinder. Use that centerstand whenever possible.

Ask the seller when was the last date a clutch spline and final drive spline clean n' lube was completed. If there's a lengthy pause, ask what grease was used. Any stammering might bring the price down. Any drifting 'off-topic' from these questions may indicate the seller has either not done these vital services or does not even know what you're asking about.

Ask to see any written service records; either dealer or owner maintained. No paper? Sales price drop.

The bile looks quite nice and even has the tire pump! That OEM toolkit now sells for upwards of a couple C-notes.

If you like it, buy it. Parts are available and you have a fantastic, BMW model specific forum right here to assist with any questions and concerns. As we all are fond of saying, "If we don't know the answer, we'll make something up."

Keep us posted on your decision. Let's have some fun.

PS: On every motorcycle that I have ever purchased from a private seller, I use a cash talks technique. Whatever you feel is the price you'd be willing to pay for the bike, put that money in your pocket. When you get down to what my Grandpa called the lick log, lay that money on the seat. My experiences have been successful. However, I always carry a wee bit extra in the other pocket as a just in case I really, really want that mo'cycle.








Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 11:16:36 AM »
The first '82 model year LS bikes had ATE calipers on them, BMW used these remaining calipers from the '81 model year bikes on the first LS bikes off of the production line, then put Brembo calipers on .

To lessen the squeal from the brakes, there is a Permatex product called Disc Brake Quiet that you spray on the metal backside of the pads, it is a spray on blue material that when dry, is still a bit sticky, the pad kinda glues itself to the caliper piston, so it doesn't squeal .

http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/specialized-maintenance-repair/brake-maintenance-repair/permatex-disc-brake-quiet-80077-detail

Some members have had success with using a rattle can auto paint in the same manner .

On the only one cylinder firing on cold engine start, it seemed it was the early ignition modules under the fuel tank, it's the part with an aluminum heat sink .






« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 12:39:59 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Matt Chapter

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 11:27:10 AM »
I'm just gonna stick my oar in, and show off what my R65 used to look like..


Of course, the relevant info is that I paid 3k USD, and the beemer had 9k miles on it... in 2006.
'04 R1150 RT ~41000 miles
'86 R65 / '84 motor ~72000 miles. SS lines, Spiegler rotor, Progressive monoshock, Keihan silencers, a piece of Pichler fairing.
'76 CB400F ~26000 miles. non-runner!

coffee_brake

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 01:05:49 PM »
Dang Matt, that's a beautiful full fairing on there. Never saw one like that.

Good info all around. The brakes ARE working front and rear, so the squealing is just something I now know I can work through. I've had to sand down pads and rotors before, but I had to ask around for this bike, what with parts availability and all.

I also think the price is primo, especially with 55k miles on it. This guy has lots of oddball and/or highly collectible motorcycles and is not desperate to sell. He's pretty firm on the price.

I may need to go see it once more, armed with a little more knowledge.

Offline Justin B.

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 05:38:53 PM »
The LS models do go for a premium over the base bike due to lower production numbers and yours looks to be in very nice shape.  

It's good that the top-end noise doesn't bother you as it drove me nuts on the first one I bought.  I was adjusting them probably once per week and I finally asked a dealer about it and he told me I was gonna wear it out adjusting on it.  He told me it was never going to sound like a Jap bike and that "noisy valves were happy valves."  I quit adjusting them...
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 09:03:56 PM »
I think a standard R65 is a better value.  you can get them for about $2500.
I would budget a carb rebuild , fork rebuild and if he doesn't have records for a spline lube it will need to be done also.
The Orings on the rear brake shaft well more than likely need replacing also at the same time lube the rear wheel  splines.
If the brake fluid is dark the brake line could be starting to deteriorate
you may want to check the date codes on the tires unless you don't think old tires are an issue.
The forks will need the soft rubber cushions also they tend to crumble into little pieces
My R65 needed  all these things plus others.
But it was worth it  :D
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 09:11:57 PM by Mrclubike »
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

coffee_brake

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Re: Is THIS my first Airhead?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 10:12:57 PM »
Where would one find a R65 or R65LS? I did a CL search nationwide and found none better than this one for any lower price. I think I'm correct to say the 81 and later had a bit more gumption but I have yet to verify this with good research.
There were two R65 within a 3-hour drive when I was first made aware of the model, both at the same price as this LS. One with all new final drive work.