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Author Topic: Timing chains and other sad tales.  (Read 1418 times)

Offline Tony Smith

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Timing chains and other sad tales.
« on: November 17, 2014, 02:59:40 AM »
A week ago I set out to give the wife's r65/80 a bit of a refresh - new timing chain, crank sprocket, outrigger bearing, new rings and fit the heads I bought 6 months ago and recently had re-furbished.

A simple task I thought, start Saturday lunch time and have it knocked over by lunch time Sunday and then go for a ride together on Monday.
 
Ha! The evil black forest elves saw me coming a long, long way away.
 
The first problem was that I could not get the header pipes out of the heads, could not budge them one iota, even using a very long piece of flat bar and more force that was really prudent - no way where they going to move.
 
OK soak in penetrating oil for a few hours and try again. First problem, I thought I would just carry on at the front end of the engine, but an artifact of recycling the original R65 pipes is that the balance pipe is way too close to the timing chest cover to allow removal of the cover. Ok twiddle thumbs for a while.
 
Sunday morning and the header pipes were unmoving. Damm, pull off the crash bars and run the grinder through the balance pipe, remove heads with headers attached.
 
Grumpy as all get out after that, so worked on my R65 which had a roadworthy inspection on Monday
 
Come Monday and the r65 passed inspection with flying colours and was duly registered, half a win is better than no win, so I went for a short ride alone.
 
Tuesday, I took the heads with pipes attached to my favorite engineering works and tasked them with removal of the pipes. They asked me what I had already done and after I told them they asked me what the hell I expected them to do. Gritting my teeth I gave them permission to destroy the heads to get the pipes out, sadly a pair of rebuildable R80 heads cost less than a pair of Staintune headers. Three hours and $110 later they had the pipes out, they had had to use the pedestal drill to drill through the heads until they hit the pipes, working their way inwards till they reached the end of the pipe, 10 seconds work with the air chisel removed enough casting so the pipes came free. Sad end to a nice set of heads that only needed new valves to be perfect, I had intended to either keep them and recycle them back onto the bike next time, or sell them to defray the costs of buying the pair of heads I imported from the USA and had rebuilt.
 
Thursday morning I ran around before work to buy some stainless tube to make a new balance pipe, couple of nice looking stainless clamps and 4 new 32t hacksaw blades so I could cut slits in the ends of the tubes using two blades side by side.
 
Saturday, cracked on and put the new rings in, followed the new heads, then started on the timing chain. In my distaste for changing crankshaft sprockets (which to my utter amazement went well) I had forgotten what a miserable pig of a job putting the joining link keeper on is. But eventually and with the aid of surgical forceps - it was on.

Below is a photo of my method of retaining the tensioner out of the way - quick and simple. I was seriously unimpressed with the quality of the new tensioner (fitted in photo), I seriously considered putting the only slightly marked original back in as it is far more robust, but then I realized that the design for the fixed tension has changed and you can't mix and match - the elves win again.

Knocked off at 4 o'clock and resumed this morning. Finished just on dark. 16 hours on task to do a job I thought 4 hours would pull up. A nice steak and a good Pinot Noir has the job of cheering me up this evening.
 



 
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 05:17:58 PM »
One trick I tried the last time I replaced the timing chain, was to bevel the ends of the old master link and put it in from the front side, then install the new master link from the back side and squeeze it with pliers to get the new link in all the way .
Once I figured this out, it went together quickly .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 06:27:29 PM »
Bob, my problem is that my eyesight is a bit challenged and I simply did not have a pair of pliers small enough to do the deed as far as fitting the keeper on the master link. Eventually I used a pair of surgical forceps and it wasn't a problem, the time lost was trying to find a way that didn't involve using forceps. Frankly if I had had a bit more time I would have looked long and hard at reversing the direction of the masterlink, a quick look and I reckon there is nothing there to snag it and so I suspect it is simply BMW pedantry that wants to you put the keeper on the inboard side.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline montmil

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 06:48:44 PM »
Quote
... looked long and hard at reversing the direction of the masterlink, a quick look and I reckon there is nothing there to snag it and so I suspect it is simply BMW pedantry that wants to you put the keeper on the inboard side.

Agreed, Tony. I did install the timing chain link "incorrectly" after confirming there was nothing remotely possible that could contact and knock the "little fish" off the master link.

And I also used a zip tie to handle the same chore as you did.


Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline mrclubike

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 08:16:45 PM »
Is the header getting stuck into the head a common problem with Stainless steel  pipes.
1982 R65 running tubeless Snowflakes
2004 R1150R

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 05:12:47 AM »
Quote
Is the header getting stuck into the head a common problem with Stainless steel  pipes.


I do not think so. These pipes had been undisturbed since 1987, which is a fair run, also whilst not being able to identify it there seemed to be a "residue" of something else between the pipe and the head. In any event the same pipes went into the new heads with no problems.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 05:15:39 AM »
Quote
And I also used a zip tie to handle the same chore as you did.


I had a bit of a look on the net as a "refresher", remembering that i have never changed a single row chain - I saw that at least two people make a special tool to hold the tensioner back. Talk about a solution looking for a problem to solve.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline montmil

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 09:10:14 AM »
I'm reminded of the mental strain in helping to replace the timing chain on my R100S.

It's a double-row, endless chain that requires the removal and refit of both sprockets and the chain... together... lined up properly... with hot sprockets... and too many hands in the way. IIRC, the currently available dbl-row chains use a master link.

Motorrad messing with us.
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 04:51:37 PM »
Quote
I'm reminded of the mental strain in helping to replace the timing chain on my R100S.

Motorrad messing with us.


Absolutely agree, my previous experience was replacing the chain and sprockets on a 1978 R100 also. As you say - fun times.

I refer to them as the evil elves of the black forest.

Actually it has been an interesting project on the wife's R65/80. I didn't do the engine swap - the entire bike was sent to Sydney by train from Cairns (2,500km) and the engine swap was done by Don Wilson - a guru of all things BMW. Seeing what he actually did to effect the swap is interesting, and involved a whole lot more work than I actually thought it did.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

tvrla

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Re: Timing chains and other sad tales.
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2014, 11:30:04 PM »
That's a cool way to hold the tensioner. But it didn't seem that tough without any extra tools to hold it back, though I don't recall at the moment what I did. I recently went into the timing area on the 93 PD due to a severe rattle between 3 and 4K.  Wasn't the valves, so what else could it be???

As I found out, it wasn't the cam chain either - with 40K on the clock it still looked new, along with the sprocket, tensioner and guide.

This is the second time since 1990 when I got the first airhead, I've tried to fix a cam chain that wasn't bad. :-(

Pretty amazing with all the airheads I've ridden and owned that none have had a bad cam chain. I don't really understand that.

Anyway, I can sympathize with your frustration - some jobs are just that way. If you had more time, it might have been a good idea to source another set of headers and run with those while trying to free the staintunes. I'll bet a few days or a week of heat, cold, penetrating liquid and vibration would have freed them up. Quite often a twisting force will be the way to break something like that loose. Of course, in conjunction with heat, cold, penetrating fluid and vibration. Put a little force clockwise, then back the other way. back and forth. Even if it doesn't move, the strain helps the lube penetrate and eventually it'll break free.

As for my rattle, it's evidently something vibrating against the underside of the tank. I found a plug wire that was hitting, fixed it, so now it's better, but still some good knocking around 3K - especially under acceleration.