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Author Topic: Steering Damper Measurements?  (Read 3040 times)

Offline ShutterPilot

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Steering Damper Measurements?
« on: July 02, 2014, 07:46:58 AM »
I know my pleas must be getting weirder and weirder...

I think some of you have or had a steering damper in place, and I'm having trouble obtaining an OEM damper.

I'm hoping someone is willing to measure the length and stroke of theirs so I have an idea of what damper to try to install.

I'm thinking about running an NHK damper, not great but they'll pass tech.

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 09:05:09 AM »
Unfortunately I cannot help you with the measurements - I will also be shopping for one later this year for my sidecar rig, but don't have things together yet.

The NHK dampers aren't bad, from what I hear - where things are usually substandard with them is in the mounting hardware.   Another possible source to inquire about are Pingel.   I know that they make many kits for H-D bikes, maybe somewhere you can find a resource to help with the fitment questions.   Aside from taking out a sliding tape measure and making some estimated guesses, I don't know what unit(s) should work best - but it is better to have more travel/stroke length and not use it all than to not have enough.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Justin B.

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Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 04:36:20 PM »
[movedhere] Chit-Chat [move by] Justin B..
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 06:08:39 PM »
Quote
I think some of you have or had a steering damper in place, and I'm having trouble obtaining an OEM damper.

There is no such thing as an OEM damper for an R65. Very briefly Luftmeister did market a low cylindrical damper that you fitted in place of the dust seal underneath the bottom steering head bearing (with all the obvious fun of the fair in doing so. The device was essentially a modified fluid "clutch" from some automotive supplier and in order to work as advertised it needed to be completely air free.
 
When we received the one that I foolishly and briefly fitted to my wife's bike, it was not air free and therefore had a "dead zone" where it supplied no damping.
  
After some thought I disassembled it, verified that the oil within was simply a generic silicone oil (available at all good fishing tackle purveyors, or alternatively in larger quantities from aviation oil suppliers). I purchased enough so that with some careful manipulation I was able to immerse the entire device in a plastic cup half full of oil and assemble it "under water" as it were so that it was air free.
 
It worked for about a month until some air got in and it had a "dead zone" again.
 
At this point I had a re-think and decided that it might be better to try and identify what was causing the incipient instability rather than simply try and mask it with a damper. A careful examination of the front tyre revealed that it was developing an odd wear pattern and was "scalloping" some of the tread. I contacted the supplier who asked me to take the tyre to a local rep who in turn took a number of photographs (this was in pre-digital camera age) and sent them to the supplier.
 
A week later I received a phone call asking that I bring the front wheel in, which I did. A new tyre was fitted, but the representative would not answer my questions regarding what was wrong with the old one, simply saying that the importer had sent his photos to the manufacturer who had responded telling them to replace the tyre F.O.C. and that was all he was able to tell me.
 
New tyre fitted, incipient wobble never returned, tyre had a long and uneventful life.
 
The damper sat on the shelving in the workshop until we moved to Cairns in 1990 and didn't make the cut of things to be moved and was dumped.
 
I do apologize, this got a bit longer than I intended. The point I was going to make is that the R65 is one of the more stable motorcycles ever made, my view is that if an R65 develops a wobble it is incumbent on the owner to find out why and eliminate the fault, not mask the fault with a damper.

I've gained a bit more experience in dealing with wobbles over the years, as anyone who owns an R100 built prior to 1985 does and I am firmly of the opinion that aside from some nasty little "gotchas" like the R100's tendency to wear the steering head hole in its triple clamp top plate oval and then develop a charming habit of launching into tank slappers at certain speed ranges that most wobbles are the result of a mismatch between the front and rear tyre, most usual a sectional mismatch.
 
To explain, in R65 land the front is a 3.50 and the rear a 4.00. both rims are right on the cusp of being big enough to take the next size up and many, many people (including me) have been tempted to run  a 4.00 on the front and a 4.10 on the rear (as an example).

Now the above combination might just work perfectly, in certain tyre brands, or it might cause wobbles - as soon as you depart from the specified tyre sizes (and types) you are no longer a consumer, you are a test pilot, as some here have found.

Finally (I promise), if I were going racing on an R65, I would undoubtedly fit a 4.00 rear section (reverse mounted) on the front simply to gain the larger contact patch, I would also do whatever it took by way of shuffling top hats etc to get a 4.50 on the rear. I would do that because in racing contact area is king and you go for that first and worry about ancillary problems later, I would also fit a damper of whatever stiffness was required to eliminate any tendency to wobble. You do this on the track because generally you will not be manhandling the bike bending it to your will for much more than an hour at a time.

I prefer a more relaxed approach to my road motorcycling however and in that world I'd eliminate the cause of any instability, not try and mask it.

Absolute last comment. I wonder if an R60/75/90/100 prior to Brembo brakes, lower triple tree would fit an R65. If so that would provide an very easy path to fitting a standard BMW damper, which actually does work pretty well.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2014, 07:15:35 PM »
There was an OEM damper available from BMW for the R65, I have one that came with spare parts for my '82 LS .

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0364&mospid=51897&btnr=32_2060&hg=32&fg=76

Don't know if they are still available from BMW or not, usually it will show not available on RealOEM  parts site if stock has been depleted .
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 07:22:10 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2014, 07:38:20 PM »
Quote
There was an OEM damper available from BMW for the R65, I have one that came with spare parts for my '82 LS .

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0364&mospid=51897&btnr=32_2060&hg=32&fg=76

Don't know if they are still available from BMW or not, usually it will show not available on RealOEM  parts site if stock has been depleted .

Well I'll be dammed! I withdraw my "never was an OEM" comment in the face of that. live and learn

a quick survey of Motobins, Munich Motors and Max BMW reveals that only Max BMW references the part number, they have nill stock on the complete kit, but have all the individual parts in stock - a snip at around $US160. Unfortunately it compares rather unfavorably with eBay prices which start at $US33 including post.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline montmil

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 08:04:39 PM »
Excellent post, Tony, re: steering dampers.

Never too "wordy" when there's gold to be mined. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Justin B.

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 08:47:31 PM »
Seems I remember my old /5 had a "friction" type adjustable damper...
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline ShutterPilot

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 07:43:31 AM »
Hey Bob-roller, it would be very helpful to me if you had pics of the damper as installed on the LS, or at least, where it connects to the frame?

I have procured the boss/attach point that screws in at the lower triple, and plan to get either the oem or NHK damper, but I cannot figure out where to connect the thing frame-side, as opposite the triple clamp boss, there's the "triangle plate thingy" in the way, on the frame where the SN is stamped.

And yes, I find the R65 tame and stable - running Metzler Lasertec 4.00 rear, and 110 front. But I'm racing her, so I needs a damper for scrutineering regardless.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 07:45:46 AM by ShutterPilot »

Offline ShutterPilot

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 07:49:06 AM »
Clarification - everyone here has been very responsive and helpful to me over the months as I try to put my R65 into both 100% STOCK as well as RACE trim.
Some of my queries may seem weird, but its because I'm trying to meet a rule book full of tech specs and requirements.
So, things like resurrecting oem zeuna mufflers - need 'em, can't replace em with aftermarkets.
and steering dampers, don't need one - gotta have one.

You guys and gals have been a great and irreplaceable resource - I couldn't have gotten this far without ya!

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 12:53:08 PM »
I'm at work now, but from I remember, there is not a factory hole, or mounting point on the frame, on any of my R65's .

When I first got the '82 LS I was considering installing the damper, I started looking at the front end, there is a threaded hole on the bottom side of the  lower triple clamp for the damper .

The best I could figure out, mount the damper in the triple clamp, get the damper to the mid position of travel, center the steering ,  then see where the other end would end up on the frame and drill a hole there for the other attach point .

I'm not real enthused about digging the damper out, and checking it on the bike, it's 105 F in the garage when I get home at 3 PM !!!! ;D

I spend most of my time outside at work during the day . :D
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 12:55:10 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

bjamesw

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2014, 04:00:22 PM »
I ebay ordered an excellent condition take-off damper from a 650 Suzuki.  Adjustable only with different weights of fluid I found one I was happy with. I'd measured from the threaded hole on the bottom triple clamp to the point I intended to mount it on the frame and searched ebay accordingly. It was less than 20 dollars and I was very impressed with the build when it arrived.
 
I've always precisely adjusted steering head and swingarm bearings so that issue was never identified as a cause. New tires, new head bearings, ultra fine balancing of wheels/tires, etc. No change.  

The Suz damper came with a rubber hooded threaded steel ball socket that fit the triple clamp perfectly.  Luck perhaps.  I tig welded a small steel ear onto the frame on the first short cross support directly beneath the steering head to mount the other side.  I'm a competent welder, was on and off of it quickly, and did not harm the temper of that section or it's welds.  It's critical that a damper be as rigidly mounted as possible while allowing freedom of rotation at the mounting points or you lose a good deal of its effectiveness right from the start. I also drove solid steel bar up to the first curve on the handlebars (approx 9 inches) as outbound inertial dampers that add little total weight to the bike but theoretically convert smaller oscillations into larger.  The idea being, as with hydraulic dampers,  that tank slappers must begin with small oscillations and build. If those small oscillations can be dealt with at the speeds and typical use of 98 percent of us then the bike becomes much more enjoyable.

Call it luck, I'm no mechanical engineer, but I've owned this 1984 since 1992 and it regularly scared the [BLEEP!] out of me right up to the very day I made the additions. From that point on I've never had even a minor one.  I have not changed my riding habits or style at all.  Bearing in mind that as amateur tuners we risk our lives and limbs with any tweaking, that danger has to be respected and CAREFULLY approached.

I'm aware that tuning irregularities out of any complex machinery often just displaces them in a way that can come to haunt, or harm, you.  "Tank Slappers", out of control harmonics,  at 60mph on long irregularly paved sweepers (my personal gremlin)  might be adjusted for only to find that your tinkering has caused them to reappear, twice as suddenly and violently, at 90mph.   For many hours I was cautious as hell when approaching any higher speeds after adding the damper and bar ends. I'd also removed twenty lbs or so of rear fender when I trimmed the whole and mounted it on the swingarm instead of the frame.

Incidentally, since I haven't posted in a long time and new members are probably reading here I'll plug the best little diy I ever discovered on this site.  The five dollar manometer with aquarium tubing and scaled stick.
It's not universally loved here, but I manage to get near perfection out of it and wish I'd discovered it years sooner.




« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 04:11:22 PM by bjamesw »

Offline R65Singh

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 01:53:59 PM »
There is one listed on Ebay.  Here is the link.  This looks exactly same as the one I have on my LS.  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-AIRHEAD-R60-6-STEERING-DAMPER-/251579649261?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ABMW&hash=item3a9350cced&vxp=mtr
1982 R65LS
1970 r50/5
1962 r50/2
1976 Honda Z50

bjamesw

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 04:43:16 PM »
It's interesting that a vestige of application exists on the triple clamp but not the frame of most of our bikes.  Is it certain that the threaded hole in the triple clamp is for a damper?  It's apparently common to dampers stud mounts (my suzuki at least) and in precisely the right location for a damper.  The one you image linked requires some mount to be fabbed to the frame.  

Does anyone have an R65 with a corresponding female-threaded mount at the frame?  

Offline ShutterPilot

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Re: Steering Damper Measurements?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 10:03:32 AM »
The tap in the triple is definitely for the damper mount, as I have the stud that goes there: part 31 42 1 237 285

And troll as I might, I still cannot locate any info or photo of where the "female" or frame mount end goes that the 8mm bolt on the body of the damper mounts to.

There are two small holes in the triangular S/N plate, I'm thinking I can fabricate a bracket/plate that would mount there, and be long enough to hang south of the triangle plate till it clears the frame, then drill a hole in the lower end of said plate to place the damper body bolt in and place corresponding nut on the backside to secure it.

Thoughts??

Oh, and I've placed photos on the restore page of what she looks like since I got her all put back together.