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Author Topic: removing/installing diaphragms?  (Read 4551 times)

Offline Rob Valdez 79 R65

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2013, 08:56:26 PM »
Quote
used a light to heat the ring
That was in my head, but I couldn't remember the source, so I didn't quote it!

The Bing Book is a great tool to have on hand, too.

Offline Rob Valdez 79 R65

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2013, 08:58:34 PM »
Quote
Snowbum's site has a ton of great information, but reading it can lead to a lot of over-thinking. For me, at least.  
It's not just you.

Most references to his site usually come with a warning.

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2013, 01:26:45 AM »
Quote
Would advise against using Stromberg replacement diaphrams. They fit and are Ok as an emergency fix but they are thicker and change the way the bike runs.

I disagree, I put Stromberg diaphragms into the R100 and noticed no difference.

With the greatest of respect, when you think about how a constant vacuum carb works, the only possible difference would be in the rate at which the slides rise or fall due to greater 'stiffness" in the material.

I'm going to call "urban legend" on that one.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

AlfromNH

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2013, 05:51:45 AM »
Well, using a 100watt light bulb as a heat source for a minutes and the ring fell off. Perfect!

I cleaned up the parts and put the ring back on the heat for a few minutes while I figured out how the diaphragms gets aligned and prepared for reassembly. A couple minutes later, the ring was melted.  :-[  I guess it's not nylon.

So I sent an email order to Bing for some more parts.

Offline Rob Valdez 79 R65

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2013, 06:57:57 AM »
Quote
So I sent an email order to Bing for some more parts.
Manual - $11.00! http://www.bingcarburetor.com/manual.html

Exploded Views
Tuning Tips
Tech Tips
Altitude Correction Charts
Jetting Specs
Jet Needle Charts
Miscellaneous Recommendations And Tips
This Manual takes you through all the circuits of the carb
Trouble shooting for specific problems
Order Today $11.00 postage paid within the USA


No, I don't work for them...

AlfromNH

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2013, 07:48:59 AM »
Yeah that manual looks like a good idea. Except that I'll put these back on the bike and never have to work on them again!  :D

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2013, 08:03:40 AM »
Quote
Quote
Would advise against using Stromberg replacement diaphrams. They fit and are Ok as an emergency fix but they are thicker and change the way the bike runs.

I disagree, I put Stromberg diaphragms into the R100 and noticed no difference.

With the greatest of respect, when you think about how a constant vacuum carb works, the only possible difference would be in the rate at which the slides rise or fall due to greater 'stiffness" in the material.

I'm going to call "urban legend" on that one.

We have had members here that have installed aftermarket diaphragms, LuckyLou in the UK got his from Motobins and had issues with his R65 running correctly .

There were two members here that purchased aftermarket diaphragms from a dealer in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area that had the same issues .

No idea who the manufacturer was, but the owners compared the Bing and aftermarket diaphragms and the aftermarket parts were notably thicker and less flexible .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Luca

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2013, 08:35:53 AM »
Quote
I disagree, I put Stromberg diaphragms into the R100 and noticed no difference.

With the greatest of respect, when you think about how a constant vacuum carb works, the only possible difference would be in the rate at which the slides rise or fall due to greater 'stiffness" in the material.

I'm going to call "urban legend" on that one.

Kind of hard to dismiss it when plenty of people have had problems with the diaphragms and the problems went away when they switched to Bing parts.

CV carbs don't have an unlimited amount of vacuum.  If the diaphragm is stiff enough, it will keep the slide from lifting in it's bore.  It's like putting a heavier spring on top of your slide.  Get enough resistance and things get cranky.
'82 R65LS
'01 K1200RS

Offline Rob Valdez 79 R65

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2013, 08:52:20 AM »
Quote
I'll put these back on the bike and never have to work on them again!  



But seriously, you will be working on these carburetors - for as long as you own the bike!

But you are right - I did not need the manual until I started switching parts around: Gen 1/Gen2.

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2013, 12:25:06 PM »
Quote
Quote
I disagree, I put Stromberg diaphragms into the R100 and noticed no difference.

With the greatest of respect, when you think about how a constant vacuum carb works, the only possible difference would be in the rate at which the slides rise or fall due to greater 'stiffness" in the material.

I'm going to call "urban legend" on that one.

Kind of hard to dismiss it when plenty of people have had problems with the diaphragms and the problems went away when they switched to Bing parts.

CV carbs don't have an unlimited amount of vacuum.  If the diaphragm is stiff enough, it will keep the slide from lifting in it's bore.  It's like putting a heavier spring on top of your slide.  Get enough resistance and things get cranky.

BMW/BING CV Carbs have exactly the same amount of vacuum available to them as any other CV carb in the world.

Please note also that I was speaking specifically about Stromberg alternative parts and not about the unknown part being sold by someone in the USA or for that matter by Motobins in the UK.


However, at least as regards parts sold by Motobins, I have been buying parts from them since the early 80s and on the occasions that I have bought "pattern" parts form them I have never had a problem. Given that they are probably the biggest seller in the world of BMW motorcycle parts (after BMW themselves) I very much doubt that they would continue to sell a part that did not work in a functionally identical way to the original.
 
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline montmil

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2013, 02:02:46 PM »
Calm down, Tony. Opinions are like arse holes... everybody's got one. You're welcome to yours as are the other folks comments.
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 02:26:05 PM »
It could have been a supplier issue, changed material and it didn't work very well, or changed the supplier of the parts .

I've seen it in the 37 years that I've been in aviation, change the supplier of a part and then have problems with them, even though they pass quality control, when they get out in real world use they don't measure up to the task .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Online Barry

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2013, 11:28:25 AM »
On the alternative carb diaphrams if we are talking all airheads across the range I've heard both sides of the story. Some say they are fine and some not.

There must be some difference with thicker diaphrams. I would expect there to be a slowing of the piston velocity in resonse to the throttle so that would mean a little extra richness possibly mostly a temporary effect like that provided by springs.

I guess that as all airhead Bings will not be identically tuned before diaphragm replacement then it's no surprise that experiences differ. They might even be an improvement for some.
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Luca

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2013, 04:42:07 PM »
OK, so I've been musing on the aftermarket diaphragms since last night.  Here are my thoughts about how diaphragm stiffness can be a problem for some people (manufacturing consistency?) in our Constant Velocity carburetors.

If the slide is held down (stiffer spring/diaphragm, more weight, etc.), but air demand is increased with an open throttle, then venturi speed will increase and pull more fuel from an equally open main jet in an accelerator pump fashion and probably richen the mixture a bit too.

However, it is not just the mixture that we have to worry about, but the air volume that makes it through the carb.  I think this is the root of the problem that some people have had with the stiffer diaphragms.

A low slide will restrict how much air can get into the engine.  While the air passing through the venturi can be sped up to some degree, there is a limit to how much this is possible (otherwise we could feed our airboxes through high velocity pinholes and we wouldn't have a variable venturi in our carbs).  It becomes a problem of fluid (air) drag.  For the sake of simplicity, consider the venturi cross section a perfect circle.  As the radius increases the drag (circumference) increases linearly, while the volume is can pass (area) increases exponentially.  A slide that is too low can be forced to breathe more via higher velocity, but it breathes less efficiently (and probably is more turbulent too) and there is a limit to how much it will let by since the engine can only pull so hard.

If the diaphragm stiffness (or any of the other variables) goes past the tipping point, the engine will not get enough air through the venturi bottleneck, no matter the mixture.

The automotive engines with the Stomberg carbs are pulling a whole lot more displacement through the carbs, and produce manifold vacuum more evenly (2-4 cylinders per carb), and with a greater manifold air volume to buffer the manifold vacuum level.  I think this is why a stiffer diaphragm works fine on those bigger engines, whereas the BMW boxer pulls a small amount of air through a small manifold at 1/2 to 1/4 the number of intake strokes per revolution, and thus has less available low pressure to keep the slide lifted by the time the next intake stroke comes around.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 04:44:10 PM by Luca »
'82 R65LS
'01 K1200RS

fbenach

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Re: removing/installing diaphragms?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2013, 11:33:33 PM »
AlfromNH, please keep us refreshed with your work on these flat tops...

I did change (the diaphragms) mine a year ago but for some reason, the right carb just kept loosen after a while... after a few more tries,  I ended up replacing my carbs for "non flat" units, fortunately, I got them quite cheap, but I still have the old ones just in case...

Thanks!!