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Author Topic: cold battery  (Read 5990 times)

Sava66

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cold battery
« on: October 24, 2013, 08:03:50 AM »
Hello all, Long time no talk. I'm finally back from Afghanistan and my German-spec 1982 R65 has now found a happy home in Georgia.  
Unfortunately, the previous owner installed a smaller battery. I'm not sure the size, (5.91 x 5 x 2.36 perhaps) but it's about half the size of the AGM one that is advertised on this page.  This morning it was about 40 degrees, and the bike really wanted to start, but even with the choke, I get about one or two "Draws" at the starter and then it dies. too cold to kickstart or "pop clutch" start down the hill (i tried both). so to make life easier I want to install a larger battery. the trick is to get more "amp hours" but something that fits in my current battery holder. So I need a battery that goes higher, but not wider or longer. is there such a beast? if i need a bigger battery holder, can you recommend one? i see them on ebay, but they're too monstrous to look normal in my "Bobber". any help would be appreciated.  

Offline nhmaf

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 09:23:37 AM »
I can't tell from your description - is the battery box on the bike the standard size, or has it been cut down?
I bought a Westco AGM battery # 12V20P this year for my R65LS - it will fit in the standard factory battery box and hold alot of juice - but it definitely won't fit if yout battery holder has been cut down or re-sized.
Here is a link to the mfgr's page and it gives the dimensions of the battery-
http://estorebc.mkbattery.com/images/products/WestCo_PLAT_Bro_v7r8.pdf
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 09:50:41 AM »
If someone suggests a Lithium  battery, I would stay away from those for the time being .

I belong to a Moto Guzzi forum and the few mwmbers that had the Shorai Lithium battery, had problems when the temperature dropped into the 50's F .

To make it simple, you need the plate area to give you good cold cranking capacity, no smaller battery than OEM size is going to do that in cold temperatures, unless you keep the bike in a warm garage .

A lighter weight engine oil may help out a bit as well .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline nhmaf

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 10:29:44 AM »
As it is only the Lithium battery and the oil which need to be kept warmer,  I suppose you could implement some sort of sump heater and a quick disconnect to keep the battery in the house with you where it is warm, taking it out only when you are ready to ride, or perhaps make up a little electric blanket for it and keep it plugged in and on a tender.

Those small Lithium battery are fine for show bikes that never get ridden anywhere, or for warm sunny day riding.   But no one up here uses them for any bike they intend  to use as serious transportation as they don't have the capacity to store enough charge for extended cranking.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Sava66

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 01:13:00 PM »
i am not around the bike, but based on the ones i see on ebay, it has been cut down. i think it's the same size as my norton battery, just the standard" about 2" wide. so i ordered another battery holder off of ebay for about $20. it has two screws at the bottom, but i believe mine is held in by one screw. hopefully there is anohter screw hole in the case. all of the information sent so far as been helpful. can we agree that more Amp hours (ah) means more numbers of time it will crank? Also, we can generally agree that the warmer the battery, the more cranks? i would love to take it inside with me every night but putting those bolts on every morning would get old really quickly. lastly, if i don't want a lithium, what do i want? are the westco agms lithium?  

Offline nhmaf

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 01:41:42 PM »
AGM = Absorbed Glass Mat  - the electrolyte is in a somewhat gel-like base - it doesn't leak if tipped over like a wet cell, and they are generally sealed and so don't burp acid out of an overflow tube.   But, they are still basically a lead/acid type of battery.   The Odyssey PC680 is another such battery.    These batteries have full size/capacity plates and  the electrolyte suspension is generally more efficient than all but a fully topped up, proper pH level wet cell.  So, you will get quite a bit of cranking amps for a fair length of time out of these.   Lithium batteries can delivery alot of power quickly, but because of the typically small size of many of them - meant mainly to be able to be "hidden ins a small space" - they cannot do it for nearly so long.  And, ALL batteries decline in efficiency and Ampacity as the temperatures drop.   But the Lithium ones lose efficiency starting at a warmer temperature, and again, the small size they typically make them in means you've got little in reserve.    If they made a Litium-ion battery the same size as the lead acid ones, they would have alot of cranking amps available.   But, they are also still affected quite a bit by temperature.   Even the Li batteries on the airplanes have to be insulated to maintain a consistent temperature.

The AGMs typically last longer than the unsealed lead wet cells, perhaps because they don't need someone to be mindful of topping them up periodically.   But, they should also be put on a battery tender if not going to be used for extended periods of time.  
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Sava66

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 05:34:37 PM »
Ok, I checked the holder, of course it fits the ATM so I ordered the one off eBay for nothing. It was only $18 so if someone needs one let me know. I went to my local bike shop and they wanted $124 for a battery, not sure what kind. Their computers told them it was for a 1982 r65, so obviously I am going to order this with the discount. Thanks for your help. Also, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being your valves will be toast immediately, how bad is starting fluid to use occasionally?

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 06:34:33 PM »
I don't know if starting fluid will cause any harm .

The only problem I've ever had using it, was a backfire through the intake system and the flame that came out, told me to keep the air filter on next time !!!!!!! ;D
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

EGRG

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 09:47:23 PM »
Starting fluid is used more in Diesel engines.  I wouldn't recommend it. If you must always use it after the engine is cranking then spray at the air filter. But do not overspray. Too much is not good for piston rings and tends to seize the engine.

Offline montmil

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2013, 03:26:21 PM »
This is the battery holder for the R65. Check a parts fiche for the necessary nuts, bolts, washers and rubber grommets for a proper install. The R65 uses two wide rubber straps to secure the battery in the tray... or bungee cords if the OEM rubbers bring tears to your eyes.



Here's a few sources for price friendly R65 batteries:

http://www.staabbattery.com/product/sla-12/UB12220-V.html

http://www.gruberpower.com/12-volt-18-amp-hour-ah-battery

http://www.staabbattery.com/product/Yuasa-Motorcycle-Battery/Yuasa-Y60-N24AL-B-Battery.html
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Sava66

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Re: cold battery rookie mistake
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 03:34:14 PM »
Hey guys, I actually can't believe I did this because it was on my mind the whole time NOT to do.  I guess is why I am just an incompetent repairman. I reversed the leads on the battery, and now it won't start. The old battery is in the right way I'm praying to the Norse gods that it's just a fuse somewhere. How do I have to pay for my sins?

I won't waste time making excuses, besides to say I out it in the same way as the old one:)

Sava66

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 03:40:18 PM »
I should make clear, it's not just that it won't start, I have no lights when I turn the ignition on. I checked the fuses above the battery and they are fine. Any other fuses I can check?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:41:50 PM by Sava66 »

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 03:58:18 PM »
Those are the only two fuses in the electrical system .

Does anything electrical on the bike work now ??
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 04:01:25 PM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline montmil

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 04:11:17 PM »
You have probably zapped a diode in the diode board under the front cover. On my '81 R65, I have incorrectly hooked up jumper cables that were flipped, ie: red handles on the NEG line! Jeez...

Have a beer, then disconnect the batt's neg cable, remove the front cover and check for a scorched spot on the diode board.

If you find a burned looking spot and smell that sad, burned electronics smell, well... eBay is your friend.
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Sava66

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Re: cold battery
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 04:42:32 PM »
The only electrical system that seems accessible without taking off the gas tank is the little fuse box below the gas tank that holds two fuses. Underneath the gas tank is a golden box that says "Bosch" on it "made in Slovenia" would the diode board be in there? Also, I was hoping for some reason that the battery maybe wasn't charged which I thought was the problem originally. Would staat battery send it fully charged? (I did check with a multimeter and I got 12.67 v) but it still seems curious.