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Author Topic: Nothing goes as planned...  (Read 4058 times)

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2013, 12:27:20 PM »
Thanks Lads !
I hope I'll be able to order the missing parts tomorrow (maybe the dealer is opened, who knows) otherwise I'll have to wait until Tuesday to order them and if lucky, to the week-end to put a hand on them.

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2013, 06:19:14 AM »
Quote


I hope it is no longer the case but 30 years ago Belray fork oil proclaimed itself to contain "seal swell" additives - namely brake fluid, the mortal enemy of a lot of rubber like products.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2013, 06:40:18 AM »
I would avoid the Bel Ray oil for re-assembly but I'm pretty sure that the previous failure occurred with another brand and viscosity.
In fact, every time I go to a bike parts store to buy fork oil, I find a different brand !
As I need low viscosity for the BMW, I'm often obliged to go to a couple of shops before getting the proper oil.
I've ordered the parts at the Classic BMW shop; I do hope I've won a couple of days for the delivery.
And the rings are not offered for the R65. You've to select an R100 as the vehicle to be able to get them ;-) Cheap though.
My wife told me the r65 looks nice without the front ???? I do not know what to think about that ?  :-/
I'll keep you posted.

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2013, 02:10:31 PM »
Hello !
Today, having a couple of hours to spare, I cleaned all dismantled parts, and get ready for reassembly when the parts show.
So I got a question : The Circlips is not a plain one. It has teeth protruding on one side.  So I was wondering if they are meant to press on the valve bush like a spring or if they should face outwards ?
What do you think ?

Offline Barry

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2013, 02:18:18 PM »
Quote
So I was wondering if they are meant to press on the valve bush like a spring  

That's correct Georges.

The earlier full length valve bodies were shimmed to remove all free play. Mine is of that type.

The later shorter valves bodies like nhmaf's used a strong spring to remove all free play although the spring also has another purpose to absorb shock loading.

Yours is an intermediate type that retained the full length valve body and used a seeger circlip with spring tabs that eliminated the need for shimming by combining the spring with the circlip. It was done to speed up production in the factory as there was then no measurement and shim selection required. So yes the spring tabs should face upwards towards the valve body.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 02:37:09 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 12:43:01 PM »
Hi,
Today I opened the second leg.
Same status. The rubber stop is some goo at the bottom of the fork.
Yesterday, I've bought a litre of Motorex Racing fork oil, 7.5W weight.
The parts have left the BMW shop in Germany. Go DHL, go !
Maybe Sunday will be good for the bike.

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 03:09:55 PM »
Hello Lads,
Waiting for my parts to show, and as a way to kill the time, I read every manual I own about the reassembly of the fork. the French "Revue Technique" is by far the worst and less detailed. so skip it. But on the Clymer manual, they state one should align all 3 ring gaps together before putting the piston back in the tube. I thought I should spread them evenly to increase the seal ? Aligning the gaps will make a leak ? So I surely miss something here ?
What do you think ?
Oh, I forgot, I assembled on leg to see the end play the valve seat has on the tube. Event with the Circlips, there is a little play, I must admit that the rubber ring is missing but, I wonder if I will need a shim or not  ? This time I will check everything hoping not to reopen the fork in the next 30 years...   8-)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:12:35 PM by georgesgiralt »

Offline Barry

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »
I alway spread the ring gaps 120 deg apart  but who knows where they end up over time.

It's the valve body in the stanchion recess that may need to be shimmed and the rubber ring makes no difference at all to that as it sits above the recess. It should only be on the very earliest forks like mine that shims are needed. Are you saying even with the sprung seeger circlip  there is still some play in the valve body ? The whole point of the sprung circlip was to eliminate the need for shims. If there is still some play though I would add shims above the circlip.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:43:05 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 03:40:36 PM »
I have read of several versions as well, and after trying a couple ways, here is what I did -

One has to compress the rings again so that the fit inside the smaller part of the fork tube bore.  One suggested approach is to use a few (sacrificial, because there is likelihood they will get severely kinked) thin feeler gauges (approx .004 - .006 inch) to squeeze the rings inward.   However, to insert the damper rod with rings back up from the bottom means that the "step" that is machined on the inner diameter of the fork tube is approximately 2 inches or more up inside the tube, and it this step that  is what the rings will catch on and damaged them.   To try to get them to compress in that space where you cannot see what is happening with extra long feeler gauges did not seem very likely to work well, and so I decided to tackle the problem from the other (top) end.

Put the piston rings onto the damper rod unit, and also place on your new, red rubber top bushing, but leave the other parts, including drilled circular plate, white plastic washer, etc off.    Take your sacrificial feeler gauges and put them on either side of the top of the fork tube and insert them far enough so that they will keep the piston rings compressed until after the rings have gone past the groove for the top round circlip (only about 1 inch or so).   Insert the damping rod unit with the red rubber piece in place down into the tube.   I did align the rings gaps on the piston rings so that I could easily squeeze them to compress with my fingers and get them inbetween the feeler gauges, and slowly push the damper rod assembly down into the tube from the top.     Once it has gone in a little way and the rings are past the top inside circlip groove, you are good!

Then use your socket wrench with extension to push the assembly further down into the fork tube until the bottom threaded end of the damper rod is not quite out - do not push too far because if you push the piston rings past that inside "step", you'll have to carefully draw it the rest of the way out and start all over again!

While the end of the damper rod is still inside the fork tube, I grasp the end of it and give it a few quick rotations of various degrees in both clockwise and counterclockwise directions.   I found that this was usually enough to get the ring gaps to move around so that they weren't all lined up together - they weren't perfectly redistributed, but  I figure they will do some moving anyway..
So, now you can put the other pieces onto the bottom end of the damper rod from the bottom of the fork tube in their proper order, fitting the retaining circlip on the bottom, and insert the base piece before inserting back into the sliders.

This seemed to work for me and I avoided the challenge of making a ring compressor from a beer can that would do the job inside of the bottom of the fork tube without cutting my fingers.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:42:47 PM by nhmaf »
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Offline Barry

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 03:47:34 PM »
I feed the damper rod and piston in from the top too.  That tapered section under the groove seems made for the job.
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 03:53:12 PM »
Yes, there is some play (very little) even with the Circlips installed the correct way. Maybe it has eroded a bit in the last 30 years ... I have ordered a lot of shims with the red gum .... On the other hand it is difficult to measure. I'll try when the fork will be reassembled and the spring is pressing. Will see if there is some play.
I've destroyed a couple of feeler gauges putting back the damper piston back in place and made a guide using a beer can (if you turn the part on the outside, like a shirt collar, this part stop on the tube and you do not have to hold this thin cutting steel with your hands during the reassembly).
My mechanic has a nice set of tools to reassemble the forks without marring anything. I was astonished by the tool. So he told me the price. I stick to the beer can and heal myself drinking the beer ...

Offline Barry

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2013, 03:57:43 AM »
Georges,

 The main spring being installed or not has nothing to do with play in the valve body except perhaps when the the forks are at full extension so that's not the time to check it. There should be no play before installing the main spring. Without a shim I had 20 thou play which allowed the valve body to audibly rattle up and down.  

If you have bought shims from BMW there shouldn't be an issue but just to make you aware of a possible problem. When the forks reach full compression the tapered top hat hydraulic bump stop #18 actually enters the bottom of the damper valve body. It functions as a bump stop when due to the taper the clearance between it and valve body reduces and there is no where for the oil to go.  My point is before assembling the fork make sure that it fits inside the valve body without fouling the shim. You can guess why I mention this having made my own shims. For information #18 is not the same part for the 3 different generations of valve body and this clearance issue is the reason why.  
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 04:03:16 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2013, 06:01:22 AM »
Hi !
Thanks for all the advices given. they're invaluable.
This morning I got the parcel from the BMW classic shop (ordered Sunday afternoon, shipped Wednesday, received Friday ! Free shipment for orders above 75€ which is not so bad).
The rings are the good ones. See the picture : On top left, the two new from set one, on the right the second set pouch and on the lower line, on the left the old 30 years old and on the right the new ones. The old set has a square section, the part in contact with the fork tube being shiny. The new rings are oval in shape (a stretched oval, that is) and the whole thing is mat black. Looks like it has had a treatment of some sort.
I got the shims from BMW and I'll look twice at the assembly before returning the fork leg into use.
I still am confused about the rings. Should I set them with the 3 gaps aligned or separated at 120 ° angle ? Can't decide from postings above.

Oh, and BTW, BMW selected to send me 6 sets of rings... at 5.76 € each and I asked for a return of 4 sets, as I've no use of them. So new shims for the two legs are at 5.76x2 € ! not so expensive. And they are made in Germany...

Offline Barry

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2013, 06:37:08 AM »
I set them 120 Deg apart and drop the damper rod in from the top. I'm sure they must then move randomly but the gaps never seem to be lined up when I take the damper rod out the next time.

As for why the new rings are oval in section and not rectangular I wonder if it is to reduce friction which has been a problem. Either that or it is cheaper to make them in the new shape.
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline georgesgiralt

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Re: Nothing goes as planned...
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2013, 10:21:56 AM »
Hop, The two legs are assembled again.
New rings, new rubber damper, new felt, new sealing washers, new lip seals and of course new oil.
I'll had to put shims between the valve seat and the circlips. 0.3 mm on one side and 0.5 mm the other side. Maybe should I had ordered new circlips.

I'll go begin to address the leak at the timing chain cover, then I'll put the legs back and torque the steering properly.

I'll then be left with the left cylinder leak.

busy week end.