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Author Topic: sudden failure  (Read 6416 times)

Offline Luca

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 02:33:29 PM »
Quote
His '79 R65, should have 2 seperate coils, like the kind that were in auto use for decades
Quote
His bike has a points type ignition .
Bob is on a roll!
'82 R65LS
'01 K1200RS

Offline Barry

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 04:36:22 PM »
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I have to tip my hat to our new member Dugald, who lives in what has got to be one of the most interesting-named towns we have represented in our international community!


Certainly is one hell of an address.


There is a famous Welsh town I've visited not that far from where I live. It's called:

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

A bit of a mouthful and frankly just plain silly. Even the locals call it simply Llanfair.

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Bill Conquest

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 06:02:28 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, been so busy, will get back to it this week. The bike has new points & condenser, coils are relatively new used bosche from a member here.. Thinking about replacing them with motto rad new ones from Rick..I hate to just throw parts at it as a method but I'm not sure what else to do!
Thanks
Bill
79 r65/75 r60/76r75/76r100

Offline nhmaf

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2013, 07:12:43 PM »
Do you have a decent multimeter, or have a friend who has one?  There are certainly things you can check before buying new parts, but without a multimeter, it certainly cuts down on what one can test.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Bill Conquest

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 01:01:11 AM »
Yes I do have a multimeter but am not sure where to start checking..i suspect the coils but will also check all the grounding points and wire connections. intermittent failure is a tough thing to figure out for me!
Bill
79 r65/75 r60/76r75/76r100

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 07:47:33 AM »
Intermittent electrical problems are the worst to troubleshoot .

You need to go at it methodically .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Barry

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 08:51:32 AM »
Points ignition is very simple. Here's a basic method to check the coils and wiring are at least not open circuit on the primary side.

Turn the ignition on and check for voltage on #15 of the rear coil.
If you don't have +12V the problem is in the first part of the circuit that incorporates the ignition switch and kill switch.

If you have 12v then check for voltage at #1 of the rear coil then at #15 and #1 of the front coil.  

If the points are open you should see +12V on each of those terminals.
If the points are closed you should see approx. +6V at both #1 of the rear coil and #15 of the front coil. There should be 0V on #1 of the front coil.      

If the voltage checks are not right with the points open and closed then you have an issue with the points.

If all of these voltage checks are OK and there is still no spark at all then it will be looking like problems with the coil secondary windings. Most unlikely that both coils have failed at the same time though.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:03:24 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline nhmaf

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 08:58:20 AM »
Start with the ignition off.   First, use the multimeter to check that your spark plug wires are good, and the coil outputs are good.   You can test these individually with the multimeter - assuming that you have resistor caps in your plug wires, the resistance from the coil end of the wire out to the boot where the plug is inserted should give you somewhere aroun 1000 to 5000 ohms. (One can get plug caps of either 1000 or 5000 ohms, typically).    The output coils of the various ignition coils vary in resistance, but usually these are in the 20,000 to 50,000 ohm range.   If each plug wire checks out OK, one should also be able to put the multimeter leads on each plug wire boot and measure the total resistance, which should be somewhere between 22,000 and 60,000 ohms (depending on caps, coils, etc.).   Write this number down, and then see if the bike will start and run.

Assuming it does run, bring your multimeter along with you and run it until you encounter the problem.   When it happens, turn off the ignition key, dismount and quickly pull the plug wires from the sparkplugs and check the total resistance with your multimeter - you should get a number very close to the first number you measured.   If the multimeter's number is alot higher, or reads as open circuit, then one, or both of the coils's secondaries are opening up due to heat.

The coil primaries should measure less than 5 ohms of resistance each, but you'll have to take the tank off to check them.

I *think* that the kill switch test will also work with the points-type ignition(?)  At least, it is handy with the solid state ignition units - one takes a spark plug out and bungees it so the metal threaded section is held against the cylinder fins.  (It helps to do this in a dark or shady place).    Make sure the Kill switch is in the RUN position, and turn onthe ignition key, and, closely watching the sparkplug for it to emit 1 spark when you flip the Kill switch to STOP.   You can repeat the process for the other cylinder.   IF the spark occurs, then it is likely that Kill switch is OK and the coils and plug wires are OK, and the problem lies somewhere inthe bean can or the wiring to it.   IF the spark doesn't occur, it could be a shorted Kill switch or problem in the coil(s) or plug wires.

someone correct me if I am wrong about the Kill switch/spark test with points ignitions - I think that it would still work unless there is a failure such as a short in the beancan (assuming good wires and coils), but all my airheads have been converted.

The voltage checks that Barry identifies above are also good and I'd recommend that you do perform those when testing in your garage to make sure things are right to begin with - though of course this means pulling the fuel tank off.   You can wiggle the handlebars and some wires as well to see if the intermittent problem is a bad wire or connection.    It isn't always so easy to pull the fuel tank off on the side of the road to measure those voltages, but if you can do so, great!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:08:14 AM by nhmaf »
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Barry

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 09:11:09 AM »
Quote
someone correct me if I am wrong about the Kill switch/spark test with points ignitions - I think that it would still work unless there is a failure such as a short in the beancan (assuming good wires and coils), but all my airheads have been converted.
Back to top

The kill switch test will only work on a points bike if the engine has stopped in a position with the points closed. Back in the day the equivalent test was to rotate the engine until the points were closed and then flick them open with a screwdriver. Both tests amount to the same thing.    
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:28:22 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »
Bill, to get rid of the risk of the bike quitting on the road and put you in a hazardous situation, put the bike in your carport or garage with with two fans blowing air over the engine/cylinders .

Run the engine until it quits, doesn't sound like it should take too long .

Have a set of spare spark plugs and when the engine quits, remove the ignition lead from the plugs, put your spare set into them place them on the cylinders and operate the starter to see if you have spark or not .

Have the fuel tank low on fuel so it can be removed easily and then check out the electrical system while it's still hot .
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:28:13 AM by Bob_Roller »
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline nhmaf

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2013, 10:29:28 AM »
Quote
Quote
someone correct me if I am wrong about the Kill switch/spark test with points ignitions - I think that it would still work unless there is a failure such as a short in the beancan (assuming good wires and coils), but all my airheads have been converted.
Back to top

The kill switch test will only work on a points bike if the engine has stopped in a position with the points closed. Back in the day the equivalent test was to rotate the engine until the points were closed and then flick them open with a screwdriver. Both tests amount to the same thing.    

Ah, correct Barry!   I figured that, statistically speaking with the points ignition on these bikes, it was fairly likely (but certainly not definite) the engine would be at a points-closed state when it stopped.

Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Bill Conquest

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2013, 06:03:31 PM »
Thanks everyone for all the great info...I'm going to try these checks this week end and will report back...after I read over these ideas a few times.
Bill
79 r65/75 r60/76r75/76r100

Offline Bill Conquest

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2013, 04:50:57 PM »
Hi Everyone, thanks again for the help on this problem. I rode the bike around & back to my house until it died..pulled the plugs & no spark. I waited a few minutes & it fired up again rode it up & down the driveway but it didn't die.. pulled the tank & did the tests on the coil Barry suggested & all the checks were over 12v...( I assume the points were open) now not sure where to proceed...
79 r65/75 r60/76r75/76r100

Offline nhmaf

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2013, 07:02:16 PM »
If you can get it back to the no-spark condition, just turn the ignition off and do the resistance measurement test from one spark plug wire boot to the other boot (plugs taken out of course).  This will tell us if the plug wires and secondary coil windings are OK.   There could still be an issue with the coils on the primary side of things, sosomething wrong with the kill switch, ignition switch or points/condensor, but it is a start...
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Bill Conquest

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Re: sudden failure
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2013, 07:21:37 PM »
I tried that test with my meter on ohms but the numbers jumped around so much I couldn't seem to get a solid reading..I know i'm doing something wrong there..what number should I set the meter on?
thanks, Bill
79 r65/75 r60/76r75/76r100