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Author Topic: Front disc replacement  (Read 2488 times)

Offline led

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Front disc replacement
« on: September 09, 2013, 10:26:29 AM »
Good day all

I have decided to upgrade my front brakes with double discs. I currently have a single disc setup with ATE or ATF caliper (cant remember the name now)

I sourced a set of Brembo calipers from a R100rs for the equivalent of about $80.

What I want to know is. Will the discs from a R100rs (snowflake wheel) fit my R65 snowflake wheel

or

Will the front wheel from the same bike fit my bike?

any comments or suggestions?

Regards

Delport
1978 BMW R45 (vin nr 57)
1983 BMW R65
198.. BMW R65 Landspeed racer called Leftover
1976 BMW R100s 4valve Krauser heads

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 11:40:10 AM »
You will also nees a larger brake master cylinder, the 12 mm diameter that the single disc has is too small for the dual disc installation .

You will need a 15 mm master cylinder .

While you the brake system apart, do you still have the OEM rubber brake lines ??

If you do, you may want to consider braided stainless lines at this time .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

Offline Barry

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 12:01:06 PM »
Quote
What I want to know is. Will the discs from a R100rs (snowflake wheel) fit my R65 snowflake wheel

or

Will the front wheel from the same bike fit my bike?


I can't give you a definitive answer but I'm almost sure the discs will have different offsets.

Unless it's a very late model R100 the front wheel won't fit as it will be 19"

The underlying issue with compatablity is that the R100 forks have different spacing between the fork legs and this influences disc offset and wheel clearance.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:04:33 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline montmil

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 12:27:50 PM »
You have several things to consider, Delport. Some might require your digging up exact specifications for the required parts.

I took a few quick n' dirty measurements from my 1981 Brembo single-disc brake R65 and my 1978 ATE dual-disc brake R100S. The R65 has snowflakes whereas the R100S has spoked wheels so that's my only basis for comparison.

1) Width of front fork, ie: centerline of stanchions:
    R65   -   7.50 in / 190.5mm
    R100S - 7.25 in / 184.15mm

2) Disc carrier offset:
    R65   -   1.50 in / 38.1mm
    R100S - 1.0 in / 25.4mm

3) The "standard" single-disc R65 does not have provisions for mounting a brake caliper on the right-hand fork lower.

4) Beside needing the mentioned larger master cylinder, you will also need the hard line brake hose splitter, probably a different front axle, spacers, brake lines with correct fittings to mate with the splitter, and several dollars worth of misc stuff.

Your desire to have a dual-disc front end on your R65 might be more economically feasible by sourcing an undamaged LS front end, master cylinder and bits.

Lastly, please include the model year of your bike- either in a sig line or in the post itself. There are differences in the bikes depending on their vintage. The VIN number will confirm the correct year as hold-over models were occasionally sold as the next year's newest and greatest thing.    
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Barry

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 01:53:44 PM »
Quote
3) The "standard" single-disc R65 does not have provisions for mounting a brake caliper on the right-hand fork lower.


Monte,

Do your R65's not have the caliper mounting lugs on the right hand fork leg ?

Mine does and I've always thought they all did as I've seen it highlighted as a distinguishing feature in several period road tests.
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 03:25:18 PM »
Discs will fit.

Wheels will not interchange - R100 is 19", R65 is 18"

Well they might interchange, but I suspect that you would have to make other arrangements to brace the front forks and mount the mudguard.

Did you also get the correct master cylinder and line "splitter"? The R65 splitter has the advantage of mounting nicely to the instrument/headlight support bracket.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 05:09:40 PM »
IT will certainly be more work and cost than what you've planned, I think - but anything is do-able.   But, if you are looking to improve braking over what it presently is, and you have an OEM rubber brake line that is more than a couple years old (and older pads as well) you might consider replacing the brake line with the stainless steel ones from Spiegler, and some new organic brake pads from Ferodo or EBC.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 06:29:05 PM »

Couple of things.
 
I have a 1978 R100RS with snowflake wheels and I know that the discs will interchange as over the years I have swapped discs around to keep (for no other reasons than asthetics) two BMW OEM discs on the front of wife's R65. I very much doubt that you have made an error in measurement so I suspect that the differences in fork spacing may have been taken up by the cast on bosses at the bottom of the early forks. In any event, for a brief period I flirted with the notion of fitting spoke wheels to the RS. I still have the front somewhere which I recall fitted perfectly, unfortunately the rear was a drum model and I decided against converting back from disc to drum.

Lastly,  I sympathize with you as a fellow sufferer of the dreaded ATE "swinging" calipers. They must surely represent the only instance where a motorcycle manufacturer went from drum brake to single disc and then almost immediately to twin disc because the single disc was less effective than the drum brake it replaced.

I never got around to fitting a late model Brembo front end to mine, and of course now the antiquity of such beasts means it will stay "stock" in the interests of originality.
 
As far as I know all single disc R65s up to the end of the twin shock model have caliper mounts on both fork legs. I am willing to be corrected on this and would like to see a photo of a pre 1985 fork leg w/o mounts.

Admittedly it was a long time ago, but when we bought the 2nd disc kit from BMW for wife's R65 (twin ATE Brembo copies no less) I do not recall the kit including a new axle or spacers, which stands to reason in that BMW would have had to have a very good reason to mount the front wheel anywhere but dead centre between the forks.
 
As regards the master cylinder, the cost effective way to fix that is to buy a rebuild kit in the correct size (it's 13mm for twin ATE R65s, not sure what size for Brembos) and then have a good brake shop bore out the existing master cylinder and press in a stainless steel sleeve. Not only will this work perfectly, the stainless steel sleeve means that corroded master cylinders are a thing of the past and any subsequent rebuilds require only a new piston and seal kit (or just a seal kit if you can find them). Last master cylinder I had bored and sleeved here was $100 and a piston kit is about $40 from Motobins.
 
A suitable brake splitter can be found in VW type IIIs, it even has the right sized mounting hole. It varies from the BMW part in that it is made of steel not brass and has 4 holes instead of 3 - a perfect invitation to also fit a VW brake light switch as they are more reliable than handle bar switches.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline montmil

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 06:48:24 PM »
...Guessing this is a NA export thing...

Correction: Not only did I already have photographic proof but I stumbled out to the shop and "discovered" brake caliper lugs had mysteriously grown on the right-side fork lowers. I even had my head inches away today as I was checking air pressures.
   The pic is from the soda blast of the '83's fork lowers. Green zip indicates starboard lower, red is port. Zips are even attached to the lugs, ya dummy...
 :-[


« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 09:04:01 PM by montmil »
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 06:52:44 PM »
Tony - there are no swinging ATE calipers on the R65.  The ATE calipers on the early R65 look very, very much like Brembos, but parts aren't all interchangeable with them.   The swinging ATE caliper on my 78 R100/7 is an entirely different beast.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 08:47:12 PM »
Quote
Tony - there are no swinging ATE calipers on the R65.  The ATE calipers on the early R65 look very, very much like Brembos, but parts aren't all interchangeable with them.   The swinging ATE caliper on my 78 R100/7 is an entirely different beast.


Sorry, either my expression was poor, or perhaps you didn't read what I wrote.
 
The 1978 R100RS that I own has ATE "swinging" calipers. The 1979 R65 owend by my wife has twin ATE calipers that are a copy of Brembo Calipers.

Hope that clears it up.
1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline Tony Smith

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 08:48:46 PM »
Quote
Both my North American delivery R65s -81 and 83- do not have caliper mounting lugs on the right-side fork lower.
Guessing this is a NA export thing as both questions are from "outta state".

Live and learn. Thank you for that.

1978 R100RS| 1981 R100RS (JPS) | 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA |

Offline steve hawkins

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 04:50:07 AM »
Just to join in, my 79 R65 started life with two two ate calipers and discs, then went to two Brembo calipers with the original ATE master cylinder, which was not so good as the caliper piston sizes were different and I ended up with a strong but wooden front brakes.

I then went to a single Brembo brake with a matching master cylinder and am very happy with it with the more progressive, lighter, simpler setup.

Cheers

Rev. light
Steve Hawkins R100 (that wants to be an R65)

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 12:35:05 PM »


I think that for at least some years of production, the second front disk brake was a dealer-option, and some bikes came through the NA dealer chain with right fork lower mounting bosses to facilitate dealer installation - otherwise they'd have a very expensive swap out process to do on a new bike, which would be highly frowned upon.   But it is likely that this wasn't a global thing, either.

The Brembos on the right hand fork leg use a "tophat spacer" in the mounting boss bolt holes to ensure that the calipers are centered over the rotor.   I am not sure if the ATE calipers would use the same thickness ones or not in those locations - might have to be trial and error.    The rotor carrier for the snowflake wheels are not the same depth as the rotor carrier for an narrower-hub LS wheel, so just keep that in mind when shopping for (used) parts.

I think if you move up to the 15mm master cylinder you'll have plenty of pumping power for dual discs, though I've also found that the travel and feel can be a bit wooden.  However, I can certainly lock up my front wheel without too much effort - something that cannot be said of some of BMW airhead brakes.

You can put a splitter on the bracket behind the headlight shell - the usual place.  You'll probably find the suitable bolt hole there easily.   I've seen some "cafe" build bikes where they ran the brake line to one piston, and then from there over the fender to the other piston - I wouldn't recommend doing that myself.
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline steve hawkins

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Re: Front disc replacement
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 02:39:15 AM »
Running a single line down from the master cylinder to the right hand caliper and looping a second line over to the other brake caliper works fine, as I ran this configuration myself for almost 10 years, before I went to single a disc.  It is a cheaper and lighter setup as you only have two brake lines to buy, you lose the splitter, but you have to go to banjo fittings.

I copied the setup from a standard Suzuki GSXR750 SRAD.  If it is good enough for Suzuki on their flagship race rep, then it is good enough for me.  Basic hydraulics.

As far as R100 discs on an R65, you will probably have to swap the carriers.  If you can't separate these, you might be stuck.

Cheers

Rev. Light
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 02:43:06 AM by steve_hawkins »
Steve Hawkins R100 (that wants to be an R65)