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Author Topic: Electronic or points ignition?  (Read 1670 times)

crocket

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Electronic or points ignition?
« on: April 09, 2012, 04:40:55 AM »
                                     My 1981 R65has the older points ign system on,it seems to start/run well. My question is would there be any advantage by putting a later "bean can "on with electronic ignition as I have a set at home?

Offline Barry

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 04:53:46 AM »
I've often asked myself the same question. On introduction to airheads in general the electronic ignition didn't increase power output. They didn't even change the spark plug gap to take advantage of the higher output.

Electronic ignition should give a stronger spark but only if you change to the correct coils.  Points coils were a pair of  6 Volt 1.5 ohms. Electronic Ignition a pair of  6 Volt 0.75 ohms or a dual output 1.5 ohms. As your bike is an 81 which would originally have had electronic ignition I wonder what coils it has now with the points fitted.  One thing the lower resistance electronic coils will definitely do is double the current draw of the ignition system which may or may not be a disadvantage depending on what other electrical loads you have and how you use the bike.

I compromised by keeping the points and fitting a low cost ignition amplifier. This means the points last very much longer and also means I can't get stranded by failure of the electronics. Switching back to stock points is an easy job at the side of the road.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 05:08:10 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 08:58:35 AM »
If you have a ponts type ignition now, you don't have the wires for, and there is another component in the electronic system, the ignition control module .

So, what I'm saying is, that you just can't plug in the electronic 'bean can' and make it work, there's more to it .
'81 R65
'82 R65 LS
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!

tvrla

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 10:19:52 AM »
I don't think you'll notice any difference switching to electronics from points. Especially if you've got an amplifier running the higher output coils your bike originally came with. And like Barry said, the points are much more dependable. Rick at Motorrad Elektrik here in the states could have had any system he chose on his bike, and preferred the 79-80 points-in-a-can system like yours. Eventually a year ago he developed an upgrade for the bean can and now runs that. But that should tell you something.

Dizerens5

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 12:40:27 PM »
I can add a curious sideline to all that. When I got my 79 about 3 years ago it had been fitted by a PO with an aftermarket Boyer electronic ignition but very strangely this had not been set up with the two-wire connection from the pickup. It had been connected using simply the single original contact-breaker wire. It was working ok. However after a few thousand miles it began to fail and I imagine that strange wiring may have been the cause (but maybe not?). I replaced it with a used c.b. bean can and two new coils and have had no bother since. But I've several times had problems with aftermarket electronics on other bikes. I'm still mystified as to why a PO used single-wire and how he knew it would work (even if temporarily). The two-wire set-up is not difficult to instal.

Offline Barry

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 04:05:05 AM »
I remembered that some time back I asked this very same question on the Airheads list.

"what is the benefit of the later electronic ignition coils which must pull something like 8 amps when the recommended spark plug gap remained the same at .024" - .028"   Unless variable dwell is employed by the black box the extra current draw represents a fair amount of additional load on the electrical system so there must have been a good reason. In the real world do the electronic ignition bikes perform any better."

This was the response from Snowbum.

"The later coils, and the electronic ignition coils, do have a much lower primary resistance and do draw considerably more current.  One could get deep into this and talk about average current drain, and then bring up the subject of the differences in DWELL, which greatly affect the average current drain, versus rpm, and so on.  I don't want to get into this, not really necessary here. The pertinent fact is that the later coils, especially the electronic ignition coils, produce a lot higher ENERGY spark. That is measured in Joules, for the nerdy here. Also for the nerdy, the ignition module is designed for a relatively fast turn-off, which creates a somewhat faster rising waveform.   These things are needed due to the LEANER mixtures used on the later bikes, due to smog considerations. Leaner mixtures are more difficult to 'fire'".

The conclusion I drew was that the electronic ignition did produce a higher energy spark but this may only be of benefit when firing weak mixtures.

The potential down side of electronic ignition pulling twice as much current was not clearly resolved. If the electronic ignition module under the tank does have variable dwell control then the overall current draw will not be double but it will still be higher than with points ignition coils.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 04:14:51 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Motu

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 06:19:04 AM »
Electronic ignition gives a longer burn time, this is needed to keep the fire going with leaner mixtures.

tvrla

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 07:35:51 AM »
My understanding is the module is essentially an amplifier with no real brain power to speak of. I very much doubt it has any ability to vary the dwell.

Offline Barry

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 12:25:19 PM »
Quote
Electronic ignition gives a longer burn time,


Makes sense.

Higher energy + same plug gap = longer spark duration
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Barry

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 12:46:05 PM »
Quote
I very much doubt it has any ability to vary the dwell.  

That's what I suspected. As far as I know there is no variable dwell. An ignition module that doesn't have the advance curve built in is unlikely to sophisticated enough to have variable dwell. That came later in the development of electronic ignition when it became desirable to cope with even lower primary resistance coils.  To prevent overheating the coils and ignition module they do have some automatic current cut off feature if the ignition is left on for more than a few seconds without starting the engine. I'm conscious that my points ignition amplifier doesn't have this feature. If the points happen to be closed (which is more probable than not) when the ignition is turned on there is close to 4 amps flowing and though it wouldn't quickly overheat the coils some heat would be dissipated by the main power transistor in the ignition amplifier so I'm careful not to let it happen for more than a few seconds.

Even with normal points ignition it's not good practice to leave the ignition turned on without the engine running.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 12:50:47 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

tvrla

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Re: Electronic or points ignition?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 04:13:24 PM »
Quote
Even with normal points ignition it's not good practice to leave the ignition turned on without the engine running.

Excellent point!