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Author Topic: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?  (Read 6791 times)

Offline montmil

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 01:05:56 PM »
You can easily remove the transmission yourself. However, the swingarm must be detached at its pivot points to allow space to pull the gearbox aft and out.

The primary tool you'll need is a 27mm socket. The fly in the ointment is that most available sockets have too large an outer diameter to get to the swingarm nuts. If you find one that does reach, the rounded opening prevents good purchase on the thin nuts. Hum...

You can buy a modified socket or have a local machine shop turn down the outside of the socket and mill the socket to end up with a flat, rather than rounded, opening.

Here's a couple link with a photo that will help you visualize the modified socket.

http://www.cycleworks.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=29_33_50&products_id=58

http://www.culayer.com/Joes_tools.htm

The bearing work may need to be done by a decent BMW specialist.

Monte
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 01:18:19 PM »
Hi Montmil,

The Swing arm is off the bike already, I had a 27 socket that fitted perfectly ( what luck  :o )

Will remove the gearbox in the morning and get hold of BMW to see if they will be able to recommend a specialist. Anything else I should check while I have everything apart besides the Clutch splines ?

I wonder what a gearbox repair will cost .........

Offline Semper Gumby

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 01:35:28 PM »
Cape Town SA?  I have no idea.  How many miles on the bike?

Mine is up just past 110,000 miles and still running.  Nathan at Boxerworks says it's time for some new bearings and an overdrive top gear.  

But the dawgone thing still runs!  

Changing out the oil twice a year: Valvolene 85W140 in the summer and 80W90 in the winter -- dark blue bottle from Autozone.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 01:35:58 PM by Semper_Gumby »
Bill Gould ?1980/03 R65 When at first you don't succeed....Moo!

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 01:45:40 PM »
The bike has got 63000km so about 39 000miles.
It was shifting and running fine. I just noticed the noise when pushing the bike out the garage ( suppose that was lucky that I did not ride further causing more damage )

Well at least now I can paint the swing arm where it has slight surface rust.

At least most of the work I can do myself  :)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 01:47:09 PM by Rubi76 »

Offline montmil

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2012, 02:54:17 PM »
Quote
... I had a 27 socket that fitted perfectly...

While you wait on the gear box fix, you may want to use a belt sander and dress the end of that 27 mike-mike socket. Your swingarm refit and adjustments will thank you. IMO [smiley=whistling.gif]

Monte
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

tvrla

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2012, 11:12:17 PM »
Sorry about that! I really am.  :-[

And, no, this isn't an easy fix - some high level training is required, plus a bunch of expensive tools. But pulling the transmission is something you can do. The only thing you might find confusing is the UJoint bolts. They're twelve sided and look like they'd need a special wrench, but in fact take a normal 12 point box end wrench. If you don't have a long one, put it on the list.

The cheapest path is sourcing a good used transmission. Look for one 83 and newer. If you decide to have it rebuilt the parts come to about $100, and if you're lucky, won't need anything extra like gears, bushings or any of the other expensive parts in there. It's the labor that doesn't come cheap. Here in the states it's not uncommon to spend $1000 on a rebuild.

There are two ways to pull the transmission - remove the swingarm axles and move it back. That requires a ground down 27mm socket.

The other method leaves the swingarm in place and lifts up the rear of the engine. Place a jack under the rear of the engine, remove the rear engine mount bolt and raise the rear enough to pull the trans. You'll need to remove the mufflers, but the headers can stay on. This is the way I like to do it.

It's not a difficult job, but the first time may take a little while. Still, it shouldn't take you more than two or three hours. Pull it out the left side.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 11:16:29 PM by tvrla »

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 04:17:30 AM »
Gearbox is out !

Was rather easy to get out of the bike with the swing arm removed. Clutch looks ok   :)

Now to get the gearbox sorted.........

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 12:47:21 PM »
Just a quick update :

Gearbox has been repaired. Turns out that only the front output shaft bearing was faulty and had just started going. So no other damage was done.

All bearings have been replaced along with all the seals.

Now just to get the bike back together  ;)

« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:52:23 PM by Rubi76 »

Offline Barry

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 01:05:11 PM »
Quote
I've got a horrible feeling your transmission output shaft front bearing is disintigrating.

Wirespokes prophesy was spot on very early on in the thread.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 01:06:14 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline montmil

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 01:08:57 PM »
Quote
Quote
I've got a horrible feeling your transmission output shaft front bearing is disintigrating.

Wirespokes prophesy was spot on very early on in the thread.

The oracle  [smiley=rolleyes.gif]
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 01:09:04 PM »
Indeed  :)


tvrla

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2012, 10:47:11 PM »
 ;D

You guys are funny!

Actually, once you've seen it a few times, it's a 'no brainer'.

Right now I'm working on two transmissions (with a third coming) with the same common cause for tear-down - the front output bearing. Of course, there can be other things, like the shift pawl spring, or worn bushings that allow it to pop out of gear, broken dogs - but that bearing is the biggie.

One of the trannies just needed the cover replaced due to (what appeared to be) a broken output boot flange from an accident. Once opened, there was shinny sparkly gritty stuff sprinkled around. Bad sign. Turns out the output front bearing had slid on the shaft (no circlip) and was beginning to deteriorate - sloppy. That's where the debris was coming from. Luckily it wasn't very far along and the rest of the transmission wasn't harmed.

Maybe five years ago my R80G/S started making whining noises. I noticed the oil was sparkly and the magnetic drain plug had slivers on it. Right then, if I was smarter, I'd have known to retire that transmission and get it worked on. But I wasn't, and I didn't, and added some Lucas oil additive hoping to quite things down and... who knows what I was thinking?

So I rode it another thousand miles like that and it seemed to be fine. Until...

I was 400 miles from home heading to Crescent City CA (about 20 miles away) and got horrible crunching noises in the gearbox. Nothing I could do at that point but stay out of third and fifth. Rode it another couple hundred miles that day to a friend's place, and from there trailered it home.

That was one of the first transmissions I worked on, and let me tell you, it was sickening - trashed the fifth gears and made a mess of a lot of stuff. All because of the front output shaft bearing!

So you don't need to ask me, because you now know - I've been there, done that, got the T. Personally, and seen it with others enough times to know it's very common.

Moral of the story - nip it in the bud! Recognize the signs and pay attention - if there's anything more than soft fuzz on the drain magnet - get it fixed NOW! It's a hundred bucks in parts - gaskets, bearings, seals - for a normal rebuild, but your transmission may not be worth rebuilding if taken to the extreme that mine was.

Just so you can visualize what's happening here - look at it like this:

That front bearing is a ball bearing. It's got maybe seven big balls with a cage that holds them separate from each other. The cage is two metal strips, one to a side, that are riveted between each ball. What seems to happen is the shocks and stresses wear that cage, eventually cracking it. From there it begins to fall apart allowing the balls to collect on one side - the side away from the other gear. The debris from the cage wears the bearing even more and everything goes down hill very quickly.

The clunk you were hearing or feeling was due to the bunching of the balls and the uneven rotation of the output shaft, and the uneven mesh of the gears.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:13:13 PM by tvrla »

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2012, 11:53:29 PM »
Very True Wirespokes ,

The specialist the repaired my gearbox for me is a Ex BMW mechanic and said he has done hundreds of these gearboxes over the years.
Most of them because of the front output shaft bearing.

Also he told me to only use GL4 Gearbox oil and not GL5.

My bearing was still intact but very rough. I doubt it would have lasted many km before self destruction as you described.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnTBM6GDJ4Y

tvrla

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 01:09:43 PM »
Even though it was an unexpected expense, I consider the outcome very good news. You definitely did much better than I did for my first experience!

Well done!

Red_Hen

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2012, 05:35:58 AM »
Glad all is working out.

My very first post here was asking why my tranny wouldn't shift - (poor Tina) who was exiled to the harsh MN winters!

And - what's this little wire clip that came out of gearbox drain plug?
Turned out to be a broken pawl clip.  I contacted Matt Parkhouse who writes the Keep Em Flying articles for BMW Owners News and shipped him the gearbox.  He did a wonderful overhaul and was very reasonable.

R65 shifts better than K75s!  Sometimes I need to remind myself that the R65 has a fifth gear!