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Author Topic: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?  (Read 6783 times)

Rubi76

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Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« on: January 22, 2012, 03:39:16 AM »
Got up early this morning to take the bike for a Sunday run and noticed a unusual noise while pushing the bike out the garage with the engine off. Put the bike back on the main stand and rotated the back wheel.

It seems to get to a point and has a clunk sound with a tight spot. Sounds like it comes from behind the gearbox.

I did not notice this noise before when moving the bike.

Is this the sound of finished drive shaft ?   :o

( This is depressing if it is the case after having the bike for only 2 weeks  :'( )
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 03:47:34 AM by Rubi76 »

Offline Barry

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 04:22:16 AM »
Quote
Is this the sound of finished drive shaft

Could just be a loose bolt or bolts #3 where the drive shaft connects to the gearbox output flange. Feel through the rubber boot #4 as you rotate the wheel.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 04:39:28 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 04:52:20 AM »
Thanks for the diagram Barry

Ok, felt around the boot.
Decided to loosen the boot and have a look. All looks fine and secure.

A bit of oil came out not much.

Is it time to strip it yet ?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 05:35:35 AM by Rubi76 »

Offline Barry

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 06:40:49 AM »
Drive shafts are very reliable and failures are rare.  There is the spring loaded damper in there though. Any further insight into where the noise is coming from ?

Might be worth waiting to hear some more responses. Bear in mind that those bolts are not meant to be re-used but in principle If you disconnected the drive shaft from the gearbox you would be able to tell if the source of clunk is the gearbox or drive shaft/final drive. Before you do anything is the noise there with the clutch lever pulled in ?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 06:50:39 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Offline Julio A.

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2012, 07:26:34 AM »
Just an idea, Isn't it possible to isolate the problem by putting the bike in neutral then turning the wheel around?

If problem persists, then it could be the driveshaft itself, or if it goes away, then the gearbox should theoretically be at fault.
Julio Alarcon
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tvrla

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2012, 07:51:45 AM »
The ujoint bolts can be re-used, contrary to earlier specs and popular belief. If it's possible to thread them in by hand, then they're not stretched and ok to re-use.

Also, please note the lock washers in that diagram. DO NOT INSTALL WITH LOCK WASHERS!!!!

However, if re-using the same bolts that had lock washers previously, either shorten the bolt or use flat washers to take up the extra distance. If the long bolts are used, they'll damage the transmission output seal.

When the transmission is in neutral and the wheel rotated, the transmission output shaft will still rotate, but not the input shaft. Pulling in the clutch in gear will cause everything up to and including the clutch to rotate, but not the flywheel.

I've got a horrible feeling your transmission output shaft front bearing is disintigrating. Pull the transmission drain plug and inspect the magnet. Tell us what you find.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 07:52:32 AM by tvrla »

Offline Bob_Roller

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2012, 08:36:50 AM »
Mis-adjusted swing arm bearings, causing the drive shaft to contact the swing arm housing, is a remote possibility .

How does the gap on each side of the swing arm to frame look ?
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Offline Justin B.

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2012, 08:45:44 AM »
On my '95 RT I had a clunk similar to that described and it turned out to be the rear output shaft bearing in the tranny...
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Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 01:27:38 PM »
Hi Guys ,

Ok, Put the bike in Neutral, and pulled the clutch in.

Rotating the back wheel and the noise is still there. Swing arm checked and looks perfectly centered.

Will check the transmission drain bolt and have a look for debris , if that looks ok will have to pull the swing arm and isolate the transmission from the drive shaft to see if the noise / tightness persists.

Any other ideas ?


« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 01:30:02 PM by Rubi76 »

Offline nhmaf

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2012, 04:56:41 PM »
It may be the u joint then (less work to replace) or possibly the cush drive spring has failed (more work to replace, but generally a very rare failure).  To diagnose either and isolate from the transmission, will require disconnecting the drive shaft from the transmission output flange inside the rubber boot by the swingarm pivots.   I would order a new set of (4) of those 12-point bolts from the dealer - especially if you have the older, longer ones with the nut&lockwasher on each.  The new stretch bolts work well and are preferred.

This way you can rotate&manipulate the u-joint and check it for binding or play, and separately rotate the output flange of the transmission and feel for roughness in its rotation.
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Offline Barry

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 03:54:19 AM »
You are getting conflicting views on drive shaft bolt re-use. New bolts is the official view and it must be the safest but some people have re-used them without problems. That would be your decision after doing some research. If you do re-use them  I would use loctite and only torque to the lower end of recommended values. Here are some links to info on drive shaft bolts that give the hard line official view and an alternative view from Snowbum who is happy to re-use them. As wirespokes said the theory is if you can screw them in by hand then they can't have streched much which suggests they are ok to re-use.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tech/bmwairheads

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/drvshftboltstoolstorque.htm

  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 04:12:58 AM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2012, 10:43:03 AM »
Update:

Stripped off the Swing arm and found the drive shaft to be very snug.
Rotated the output shaft when the gearbox is in neutral and seems to be very tight to turn and has a tight spot when turning.

I took a video with my cell phone

http://youtu.be/m5zv_DAhw1s

« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 11:02:04 AM by Rubi76 »

tvrla

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2012, 12:26:51 PM »
Evidence is pointing more to the transmission. There was no need to pull in the clutch while rotating the wheel in neutral - the input shaft is disconnected from the power train at that point. But the output shaft IS still rotating, and that's the one with the troublesome bearing.

The front (towards the front of the bike) bearing on the output shaft is the one that normally goes bad first. What tends to happen is the bearing cage fractures, and since that bearing is somewhat isolated, the debris recycles through that bearing. Once it starts to go bad, it disintigrates very quickly. But the first thing to go is the bearing cage. Without the cage to hold the large ball bearings in place they migrate to one side allowing the shaft to shift, which then minimizes gear mesh. That clunk you're feeling is the shaft flopping around in there.

Checking the magnetic drain plug is easier than separating the driveline, so I'd have done that first. If concerned about possibly unnecessarily draining the gear lube, it's possible to quickly plug the hole with a finger while inspecting.

Even so, draining the fluid into a clean container enables you to easily pour the contents back in should there be no contaminants.

What you're going to find on the magnet is more than soft fuzz (acceptable) - it's going to be slivers and chunks.

This may seem like horrible news, but there is an up side. You're extremely fortunate  to discover this now rather than on the next ride when the box starts emitting screechy clunky noises and the gears are trashed and not re-useable.

Since this is a new bike to you, I'd contact the seller and let him know what you've discovered. Hopefully he'll refund some of the purchase price. So hurry up and check the oil - that's an important step in diagnosing this one.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 12:28:31 PM by tvrla »

Offline Barry

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 12:29:23 PM »
Looks like you have found the problem perhaps to be confirmed by metal fragments on the drain plug.

I guess we all try not to be too pessimistic but with the drive shaft being usually reliable it was odds on to be the potentially more expensive  gearbox.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 12:33:38 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

Rubi76

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Re: Clunk - Is my Sunday ruined ?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »
 :'(

So it wasn't just my Sunday that was ruined but my whole week

Drain plug removed and this is what I found.........



Looks like you hit the nail on the head there Wirespokes, so now to pull the gearbox off the bike.

Is this a job I can do myself or will I have to send it to someone that is a specialist ?

« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 12:50:38 PM by Rubi76 »