Starter Button

[wxp]

Hi all,
I'm on a trip need a little help, I'm in ATL right now & experiencing some starter probs..Basically after running through a tank of gas the starter button will not work. If bike sits over night & cools off then it works again. Not the starter, generally when starters go bad & break down from heat they act like a weak battery, this is just nothing when bike is hot & once cooled works fine. Had a new starter relay put on 2 yrs ago in NYC, the one behind the battery cover on side of bike..BTW it is a 1980 r65

Any suggestions/ideas would be great.

Bill

[Bob_Roller]

Have you tried pulling in the clutch lever when attempting a start when it's hot ?

There's an interlock switch on the clutch lever that prevents the starter from working when the bike is left in gear .

It's a bit of a long shot, but I had that switch give me some problems in the past .

I don't know if you can do this when the starter acts up, but remove the tank press on the top of the starter relay, usually you can manually close the contacts on the relay doing this and cause the starter to operate .

I've had a starter relay give me problems, when you pushed the start button, the starter relay would click, but not operate the starter .

If you remove the plastic case from the relay, you can adjust the small arm that has the springs attached to it, bend it enough to have the relay contacts close when it is activated electrically .

Can't remember if a bad neutral light switch has any effect on starter operation or not, but is your neutral light working properly ?

There's an outside chance of corroded  electrical connections at the starter .

Just a few possibilities I could think of and a few personal observations .

[nhmaf]

It might be difficult, but can you hear a "click" of the relay when you turn the key on?   Do you hear a click when you press the starter button?
These tell-tale clicks can tell us if you've got working relay(s) and starter solenoid.   If clicking is heard, but starter doesn't turn, it could be the starter is just dry&dirty and needs to be cleaned up and re-lubed in the nose gear/bendix area - these can bind up if neglected for decades.  It is possible that with thermal expansion when hot, that this might be happening to you.   If it is a non functioning solenoid, I think that a solenoid from any air-cooled VW car will work as a substitute if you are in a pinch.   As Bob mentioned, the starter relay contacts can sometimes be engaged by pressing on/deforming the plastic case a bit - if you do that with the keyswitch on and the starter engages, you've found the (bad) relay!       I would also pull the starter relay out and clean the contacts on it and the mating connector with electrical contact cleaner just to be sure, also.

[Bob_Roller]

I would recommend a starter disassembly, cleaning and lubrication on any R65 that hasn't had it done before .

I had a cold hard starting issue about 5 years ago, the real culprit was an ignition coil with too low of a primary resistance, but as part of the trouble shooting tips I was given, was to check the battery voltage when the starter was operating .

My starter was drawing way too much power while rotating, adding to the weak coil .

I disassembled the starter and found no lubricant what so ever anywhere in the starter .

About a 4-5 hour job, not counting the removal and reinstallation time .

Euromoto Electrics has all of the replacement parts if yopu need more than brushes .

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Valeo_and_Bosch_Original_Equipment_New_Starters_s/3.htm

[Ed Miller]

"There's an outside chance of corroded  electrical connections at the starter"

That seems to be my problem.  Yesterday after a stop to return some Honda parts, my bike wouldn't start.  I push started it and kept it running all the way home, where it still wouldn't start.  So I quickly doffed my riding gear and proceded to investigate.  My relay would click and my headlight would dim when I pushed the starter, and mashing on the relay did nothing, so I removed the starter cover.  I detected battery voltage at the big black wire attached to the starter solenoid, (should have used a test light, not a voltage meter, but anyway) and used a screwdriver to short that to the terminal that the wire from the relay attaches to.  The starter turned over, so I knew it was good.  I cleaned up that male terminal on the solenoid, re-attached the wire from the relay, and the bike would turn over with the starter button.  I hope that lasts a while!  I need to redo all of the battery and starter wires, I'm sure, but I only had an hour before I had to head back out to a meeting.  

Does anybody know a good way to clean the inside of a female blade terminal?  Maybe a nail file trimmed to be square ended would work.

I noticed that that big black wire on the starter solenoid is always hot, even with the key off, so I disconnect the ground wire from the battery before removing that cover so that I don't accidentally short out that wire and make big sparks.

[montmil]

...Can't remember if a bad neutral light switch has any effect on starter operation or not...

If the neutral switch is suspect, it can be checked by pulling the two wires off the switch and placing them together while operating the starter. I no longer have a neutral switch on my '81 since I went to the digital Vapor instrumentation. Plain 'ol drain bolt in the trans sump and mated the two wires into a loop. Good to go.

Monte

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

This talk of corrosion reminds me of someone we helped here not too long ago.
I suggested he pull back the insulation on the positive starter cable at the battery, and sure enough, it was all white and nasty with corrosion!

It is something simple to test, so I bring it up for consideration.

[k_enn]

<snip>Does anybody know a good way to clean the inside of a female blade terminal?  Maybe a nail file trimmed to be square ended would work.
<snip>

I just went through that process on my starter relay connections.  To answer the question, there is no *good* way to clean, but there are ways.  I tried using a very small metal mechanics file.  Several problems -- on one terminal the tip of the file broke and got trapped in the terminal, and on another the fit was too tight and ended up spreading the terminal to the point where it would not be secure on the blade (I tried crimping it back, but it was not the same).  Another option is to use some small strips of emery paper.  It can get into the terminal without damage, but it is almost impossible to get enough pressure on it to remove any corrosion.  Regardless of what I did, I ended up with poor connections, and ultimately I just replace the terminal.  They are cheap enough and easy enough to replace, so why bother cleaning an old one (unless you are stranded).

k_enn

[k_enn]

To comment on the original post -- if you know how to use a multi meter, you can test the starter switch and its wiring.  That way you can rule it in or out.   Check this link for information on how to test the starter button and its wiring:  http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/starter/index.htm    Granted, the link is not for the R65 but for earlier models, but the process should be basically the same.

k_enn

[wxp]

I've done ohm testing on the starter button & relay both when cold, took a 30 to 45  minute ride w/no problems, just seems at this point have to go through a tank of gas to get it hot enough for it not to work. Been able to start it by pushing off w/no trouble, just no fun having to push, should be able to get it home w/no prob. at that point I'll try cleaning all points of interest & first thing I'll do is check switch & relay ohms while good & hot. Just too weird for this to be happening all the sudden. Clutch in or out, nuteral saftey switch works fine.

I think I heard some clicking the other day when first acted up, I listened for clicking & thought I heard some, I haven't gotten it hot enough since I've been here to do any other checking. I'm heading home tomorrow so I'll be able to check then & try to let everyone know what I found out.

Thanks for your help.

Bill

[k_enn]

The clicking is probably a relay.  Can you describe the "clicking."  

Is it a single click when you turn the ignition on?  If so, that is probably the headlight relay you hear.  

Is there no click when you press the starter button?  If so, the starter relay is not being activated, and look at the relay itself or the connection to the relay terminals that activate the relay.  

Is it a single click when you push and hold the starter button?  If so, that is probably the starter relay, and a single click indicates that it is probably closing and holding closed the starter circuit like it is supposed to.  

If it is multiple clicks (e.g., stacatto), then that is an indication that the starter relay and/or the connection that activates the relay (i.e., the spade terminals at the relay) is going bad (i.e., won't hold in the "start" position when the button is pressed).  I would recommend replacing both the relay and the female terminals that activate the relay.  A relay is relatively cheap (<$30) when compared to the aggravation of not getting the bike started, and the terminal connectors are just pennies each.

k_enn

[wxp]

well just to let everyone know, i still don't know what the problem is, i think a relay or the switch itself, not the starter, have a good battery, & good clean connections everywhere.

We made it back to L.A. sunday, man that bike is fast, my son rode it more than i, he scares me to watch him ride it, i did ride it a bit & the more i do ride it the more i like it, finely got the carbs balanced & adjusted &  running much better now. i just need to find some good inexpensive side bags i can mount on it  & will be just as utilitarian as the gs.

I just got back from the auto parts store for another vehicle & it ran great all the way there & back.  

It needs some spark plug wires, is there a good source for them? what are people using??

is there a headlight relay? if it were bad would the head light work at all? my head light only works if you push the switch all the way down past its last normal position, makes me think the switch & not the relay

what kind of riding do people here do, highway, around town, back & forth to the store? trips only , daily? 5, 10, 40 a day? i ride this bike & a 1150gs daily for everything practically. good thing my wify likes to ride on the back. she wants her own ?

Anyway thanks for all the support, like other bits w/this bike they tend to work themselves out in the end, I'm sure i'll find the prblem some time.

Bill

[nhmaf]

The last set of plug wires I bought for were from these folks on ebay - they seem to be pretty good.

http://tinyurl.com/2eykjld

Similar items, different seller:
http://tinyurl.com/27bo5w9

In any case, you're likely to be happier if you go with the NGK plug caps over the OEM/traditional metal covered ones.

You can do a search within the past couple months on "relay" and should find some threads where we've posted pics of the relays and heir positions under the fuel tank.

As you're coming to know, these little R65 bikes are nice handling machines - quite underappreciated, too (but that keeps them more affordable, so don't let the secret out !)

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

Mikes XS has top-quality components: caps, wires and shipping ~ $16.00
http://www.mikesxs.net/products-27.html#products

If you have your original wires, un-solder the ends that go into the coils and reuse them, soldering as before.  This is a superior connection to the crimp-type.  Although that 2nd eBay set looks like it has solder-type terminals.

[montmil]

 + [smiley=thumbup.gif] for Mike's XS

I bought wires, caps and plugs for both my R65s from Mike's. Also loaded up on detachable wire connectors and insulated covers. All very UJM stuff but handy to have in the shop.

Monte