To tube, or not to tube?

[caci]

Getting a pair of Lasertecs tomorrow for my R65LS.
Tubes or no?  Perry Bushong says "yes, you need tubes".
Not doubting him - just curious if there are other informed opinions out there.

Thanks,
Chris

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

Of all the cast wheels on R65s, the ones on the LS are the most likely to keep a tire bead in place in the event of a flat.  It is a different wheel than the standard snowflake.  It has a different profile at the edge near the bead.

Perry is recommending tubes because it is the safest thing he can say, both from a practical and a legal standpoint.

BMW always said to run their cast wheels with tubes - up to the K bikes and then the mono-shock twins.

You would have to make a modification to your nozzle hole to accept a tubeless nozzle.

The biggest advantage to tubeless is the easier road-side puncture repair.
Lesser advantages are less unsprung weight and cooler running.

If you do decide to run tubeless, don't be cheap on the nozzle!  Cheap ones will crack and leak.  Get quality.

[nhmaf]

I run tubes in my LS wheels.  I find that the Metzler tubes are good quality and have a long enough valve stem to work with the tall center ridge of the LS wheels - just don't put a nut on the valve stem inside the wheel when you put the tube on.

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

Oh yes, if you use tubes, make sure they are good quality NATURAL rubber.  Perry should know what you are talking about and have them on the shelf.

[Red_Hen]

Mine has snowflake wheels - the old tires we removed had tubes and the new tires that went on BT45's have new tubes.  I think mine are Michelin tubes.  Valve stem sticks out plenty to fill with air.

[steven m]

I may sound like a square, but let's look at the big picture- vintage bike, vintage rims, both in design and potential porosity, vintage tire size- run tubes.  Safety first.  Do you really want to find out why maybe it wasn't a good idea to go tubeless?  I thought about it as well and went with new tubes and tires on my trusty 83 with snowflake rims.

Just my two cents.

Steve

[Barry]

Nobody employed in the motorcycle industry will ever advise you to run without tubes for the obvious legal liability reasons that Rob has mentioned. The major airhead guru's like Oak will also advise against it. This has been debated many times on various BMW forums though and a search will produce quite a few people who have done so with no ill effects over very high mileages including racing. You have to decide. Personally I am running tube type tires which must have a tube fitted regardless of rim but will consider using tubeless tires without tubes at the next change.  My reasoning is that while I can see that a tubeless tire on the correct rim profile might be safer than the same tire on a snowfake rim, I can't see how adding a tube to a snowflake rim makes that rim any safer in the event of a puncture. I'm also inluenced by the view that the snowfake wheel is not an elegant engineering solution. What was the point, other than marketing of introducing an alloy wheel that was several pounds heavier than it's predecesor and on top of that still needed a heavy tube which also weighs several pounds.

[Bob_Roller]

I bought an LS in June, 2009, had the tires replaced, in Oct,2009 .

I dropped off the front and back wheel/tire assemblies at Southwest Mototires in Tucson .

I told them to mount Metzeler Lasertec tires, and use Metzeler tubes .

When I went back to pick the wheels up, they told me that they saved me some money by not installing tubes .

Had a bit of a discussion with them about it, and I was told, that the rims were designed for tubeless tires .

The tires that were installed, didn't have tubes, and they weren't tubeless tires, and they were worn down to the wear bars .

So, I'm a somewhat unwilling participant in this discussion, I haven't gotten the bike on the road yet, (a few more month's hopefully) .

I checked the tire pressures this last Monday, and they were within 2 psi of the pressures that were in the tires when I got them back in October .

[caci]

I may sound like a square, but let's look at the big picture- vintage bike, vintage rims, both in design and potential porosity, vintage tire size- run tubes.  Safety first.  Do you really want to find out why maybe it wasn't a good idea to go tubeless?  I thought about it as well and went with new tubes and tires on my trusty 83 with snowflake rims.

Just my two cents.

Steve,

Thanks for your input.  Are your wheels R65 or R65LS stylle?

Chris

Steve

[Barry]

Nobody employed in the motorcycle industry will ever advise you to run without tubes for the obvious legal liability reasons  

Well I got that wrong given Bob's experience with his tire dealer. Perhaps not being BMW dealers they were unware of the ongoing debate.

I did a bit more digging and the main aurgument against running without tubes on snowflakes centres around the possibility of rapid deflation after hiting a deep pot hole or kerb at speed whereas a tube would survive the impact and keep the tire inflated even though the rim may be damaged  If this is true it certainly adds weight to the view that if you are going to use a tube better make it a good quality one.

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

My point about natural rubber comes from ages old wisdom, when cheaper tubes would split when punctured, causing a rapid deflation, while natural rubber would not split, and you would have more time to get stopped before the bike went out of control.  That may have changed with time, but I'll stick to the good stuff.

Yes, I use tubes.

The one flat I had was on the rear, and I just noticed the bike was handling sluggish as I got near work.
I was barely able to make the right turn into the lot & into my spot.  It was a good place to have one, at slow speeds in town.

[MrRiden]

The conventional wisdom is to run tubes, I do. That being said I have heard of many running these rims sans the additional air bladder. I have unsuccessfully searched for an example of a proper diagram of what truly constitutes a "tubeless" rim profile and what is deficient in the BMW rims. So I err on the side of safety, perhaps through ignorance. I would truly like to run tubeless for the benefit of easy nail repair and honestly have never seen a tire "blow out" on a bike. But there is that unknown. So just what is it that makes the difference in a "tubeless rim" that the BMW is lacking? Anyone? There is a lot of bluster 'bout this but I've yet to see, SEE, where the problem lies. I'm starting to lean towards Bobs information but so far all I've seen is opinion on either side. Anyone have a subscription to SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)I know they have it there but I'm too cheap.
rich

[Rob Valdez 79 R65]

I found a pretty good explanation, here, I think.  If you can believe what you read on the internet! lol!

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10200

[caci]

Thanks for the input, eveyone!

I had intended to use tubes from the start, just wanted to see what add'l info could be gleened from the Forum.

BTW, I got my Lasertecs from Family Power Sports, in Weatherford (TX).
Phone (817) 596-3244
A couple of my friends buy Suzuki/Yamaha parts from them, as well as tires.
They quoted me $250.00 (with IRC tubes) including tax for the pair, cash &
carry.
This is in the same ballpark as SW Moto Tire's price.

When I picked them up today, I noticed their "February Special":

33 Point Check Up FREE

Discounted Oil & Filter Change

FREE Mount and Balance on tire purchase.

My friend and I were all set to tackle the mount & balance.  We had already removed both wheels.  When I asked them about the Special,
they said that they would take care of me and they did - same $250.00 + $12.00 disposal fee.

More than reasonable.

If any of you N. Texas Members need tires, ya got 4 days left in Feb...



All the best,

Chris

[Barry]

Not wish to extend the debate too much but I thought it would be useful to compare the tubeless rim from Robs link with a picture of a Snowflake rim I took last summer. Remember Summer and flowers ? I always work in the garden rather than the garage when the suns out. The lack of any significant hump and different slope to the rim are obvious. What I want to know is if the snowflake rim is so unsafe without a tube how come it can be so damn hard to seat the bead and too break it again when changing tires ?