The member photo gallery is now integrated and live!!  All user albums and pictures have been ported from old gallery.


To register send an e-mail to admin@bmwr65.org and provide your location and desired user name.

Author Topic: Bumped up fork oil  (Read 1567 times)

Offline montmil

  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 8371
Bumped up fork oil
« on: August 11, 2010, 12:15:23 PM »
Been standing out in the road, hoping to see the UPS truck bringing my new Hagon shocks for the '81 R65. After my cool Three Twisted Sisters ride, I decided I needed new rear boingers and really needed to do something about improving the damping action of the front forks. So...

I have been using the recommended 7.5wt BMW fork oil. However, the front end really seems to blow through the damping action way too quickly. Quite noticeable during the recent Hill Country ride.

Just returned from a "bump searching" ride after changing to Bel-Ray 10wt fork oil. Not a great jump in mineral oil weight but I tried to hit street speed bumps and chuck holes at low to medium speeds; ie: 15-50mph. Quite a difference. A noticeable increase in stability.

Back to the street. Hagon report hopefully soon. Sure hot out there.

Monte
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 12:18:09 PM by montmil »
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

Offline Justin B.

  • Administrator
  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 5983
  • I love my Beemers
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 01:11:52 PM »
It's only 99 degrees...  I have Hagons on the Dawg (used off flea-bay) and they are quite stiff but then again I had been used to riding the 1150RTP which is like a La-Z-Boy...
Justin B.

2004 BMW R1150RT
1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!

Offline montmil

  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 8371
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 02:06:06 PM »
Dave Quinn is building the Hagons to my personal and bike specifications. That means a 153 pound rider weight, sans gear. and a 100lb Slimline spring on the thirteen-inch shock body. Dave says that the spring rate is correct when you, me and us all see a very slight sag when seated on the bike.

You might give chatty Dave a call and get a quote to match spring rate with your, uh, svelte self. ;D

99 degrees? It's a lovely 97 here, but I'm a bit north of you. ::)

Monte
Monte Miller
Denton, TEXAS
1978 BMW R100S
1981 BMW R65
1983 BMW R65
1995 Triumph Trophy
1986 VW Cabriolet

bjamesw

  • Guest
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 11:00:18 AM »
I got a bit fanatical about tightening up my bike's sloppy manners.   The shakes/shimmies in medium to high speed 'sweepers' when the pavement was less than perfect unnerved me, but the final straw was years and years of trying to iron out a "clunk" in the suspension that defied all remedy.  

Through MAXBMW in New Hampshire, and a very cool,  very interested-in-your-problems guy there named Rusty Gill,  I ordered a three piece (replaces the one piece valve barrel for the fork along with new seals and washers).  It's a part that supercedes the one piece in R65s after a certain year and is referred to in some places as an "anti-dive" feature.  Although neither Randy nor myself could apprehend just how it could change the damping properties since it doesn't change the oil flow one bit, it does eliminate a few possible points of rattling since it incorporates a beefy spring.   The R65 fork seems to be one of the few BMW forks that does  NOT incorporate a rebound spring.  Just a damn little urethane bumper.  Why? I don't know.  To be cheap?

I installed them in the forks and just to push things a bit I put a 5/8 spacer (cut from standard gauge grey PVC conduit) above the springs and bought some Honda SS-8 10wt fork oil.  

Ok.  So I have my springs stiffened by 5/8 inch.  I have slightly higher vis oil than the manual recommends.  (the "anti-dive" assembly does not change the handling, but I'm hoping it quells some of the clunking). I also have an OEM Suzuki steering damper installed (detailed elsewhere on the forum with pics  http://www.bmwr65.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1222528203/0#0).  

The bars still fall against the stops on their own when the bike is on the centerstand. It's a nicely built damper.  It doesn't inhibit movement unless any action attempts to move it too suddenly, like a bump in the road.  There is always some concern voiced about a damper inhibiting any of a bikes "nimbleness" (as it was put here in another thread).  But a well designed damper does none of that.  The old fashioned friction plate damper on older BMWs with the black knob on top of the steering column gave it a bad reputation since that one did in fact make the bike less nimble.   But a modern damper is designed to only inhibit the quickest of movement. It's like putting your hand in a bucket of water.  For normal movements of the hand, the water has insignificant effect on your freedom.  Only when you try to move very suddenly does the water dampen movement.

I also have bar end weights in the form of as much steel rod as I could cram into the ID before the bend stopped it... quite a bit really.  

The 'clunk' is 95 percent eliminated.  I can live with that since, most importantly,  it confirms that it was in the fork and not some loose cannon under the tank, in the steering bearings,  under the timing cover,  in the starter, etc, etc.  It really was driving me insane for many years.

And the bike handles WONDERFULLY.   There's only a bit more road feel transmitted through my arms in the bumps.  But the ability of the front end to maintain contact with the pavement, and maintain a line, through bumpy curves is literally smile-inducing compared to what I'd been living with.  

« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 11:35:08 AM by bjamesw »

Offline Barry

  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 5145
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 12:06:37 PM »
Quote
Through MAXBMW in New Hampshire, and a very cool,very interested-in-your-problems guy there named Rusty Gill,I ordered a three piece (replaces the one piece valve barrel for the fork along with new seals and washers).It's a part that supercedes the one piece in R65s after a certain year and is referred to in some places as an "anti-dive" feature.

bjamessw

I would be very interested to hear more detail on your "anti dive kit".
Does it comprise of a shorter valve body which is held in place by a spring to eliminate the need for shimming. Is the replacement valve washer plastic with a bevelled edge facing upwards and is it a little thicker.  All of these things were the subject of Service Instruction 2082 back in 1983  Could you take a look at the part numbers listed in the SI to see if they are the same as supplied by MAXBMW. I had thought these parts were no longer available in fact the MAXBMW site lists some of them as not available.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 12:08:40 PM by bhodgson »
Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

bjamesw

  • Guest
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 12:39:43 PM »
Barry,   I just looked around and could not find my reciept or papers.  I got the parts a couple of years ago and got around to installing them this spring.  The parts in the service sheet you linked are exactly the same.  I only wish I'd seen that sheet earlier since it mentions a valve washer with bevel that "reduces noise even further".  That might have solved the "5 percent" that I referred to earlier.

The only parts I replaced were the single barrel with a recess on one side that holds the white plastic ring.  The original valve washer, with the holes, and plastic ring, was reused.  The one piece barrel was held in place by circlips.  Previously I had shimmed the barrels under the circlips and they appeared to be very solidly kept inplace.  That's why I had doubts that the three piece replacement would be of any remedy.  In place of the single barrel is a much smaller barrel, a beefy spring,  and another smaller barrel.  All three fill the space that the single barrel had been.  The circlips are the same.  It does not appear, side by side, that the three piece has any affect at all on damping characteristics.  It only looks like it totally eliminates any room for slop or need for shims.  Maybe it helped, maybe it didn't.  

It was ASTONISHINGLY inexpensive.  Even the parts guy thought so.  Looked like the pricing had not been updated in thirty years.  The barrels were a couple of bucks as were the springs.  Total for all the parts,  replacement circlips,  crush washers, orings, with ship, came to less than 30 dollars.

If you have more detailed questions here's their website....
http://www.maxbmwmotorsport.com/max-bmw-staff/#G

Here's the guy I ordered from....
Rusty Gill
Parts Manager
New Hampshire Store
603-964-2877 x 121
rusty@maxbmw.com

Ask him about the fork parts ordered by Brad Williamson a couple of years ago.  I shoud be in the files.  
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 12:47:20 PM by bjamesw »

Offline nhmaf

  • Global Moderator
  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 5156
  • Free at last, Free at last!
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 12:53:19 PM »
Rusty is a very helpful guy and knows quite a bit about airheads - I seek him out when I need parts/help if the other folks in the shop don't automatically direct me to him, unless it is for something simple like inner tubes, etc.

The clunk that happens on some of these forks is the sound from the forks topping out - aside from the rubber/urethane donut inside there is nothing to absorb the rebound of the spring and assembly after hitting a big bump.  Heavier weight oil does help somewhat, and it seems some forks are more prone to this than others.   I do get some occasional clunk with my forks which have the heavier Progressive springs installed - which also have about 1" PVC spacer installed at the bottom end of the springs on top of the damper assembly.  Putting the spacer at the top of the springs under the fork cap was easier, but resulted in more noise.

I'd heard of cartridge emulator mods to the forks, and of the kit that you installed, but had never heard a before/after story of how well it worked.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 12:55:17 PM by nhmaf »
Airhead #12178 ? BMWMOA #123173 ?BMWRA #33525 ?GSBMWR #563 ?1982 BMW R65LS ?1978 BMW R100/7 1998 Kawasaki Concours

Offline Barry

  • Mt. Olympus Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 5145
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 01:15:30 PM »
Brad

Thanks for the detailed reply and contact info for Rusty at MAXBMW. It's good to know they were still available so recently. I don't whether  they would ship to the UK. Maybe I should try again at the local BMW dealers here first. I know for sure that the independents like Motobins do not stock these parts.

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45

bjamesw

  • Guest
Re: Bumped up fork oil
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 06:35:26 PM »
Barry, I hadn't noticed your locale.   I hope you have luck if you decide to do this.  

I was advised that it might be difficult to install this without a special compression tool, but I have carpenter's vices on my benchtop with dogs that slide up for clamping oversize objects against the bench.   I screwed a small wooden stop inbound on the bench a little within the range of compression that I needed.   I put one end of the assembly against that stop and compressed the spring assembly with a suitable sized MMsocket (small enough OD so that there was room to insert the circlip)  using the dog on the vice.  Snapped in the circlip.  Worked great.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 06:39:17 PM by bjamesw »