The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2

Technical Discussion => Restoration Progress Logs => Topic started by: starman85 on January 24, 2015, 04:45:25 PM

Title: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 24, 2015, 04:45:25 PM
Recently I saw and image of a very nice looking Airhead café racer on Tumblr and got bitten by the bike bug... The last time I rode a bike was 12 years ago when I took motorcycle license exam... When I saw that image I remembered how much I wanted a ride bike 12 years ago. In the meantime life as it happened drove me quite far away from bikes and I have decided to put things back in order - I purchased the fair lady - Bertha on Ebay.

I got a good deal on the bike. Shipping from Germany was not much also. So I'm going to bring it up to café speed. I have access to fully stocked (and staffed ) workshop - actually a full blown 4 wheeled BMW service run by a friend of mine. They'll help me with all things technical but they are more into cars actually so I will greatly appreciate any help and advice from you folks.

I test drove it last Saturday. The carbs were awfully out of sync and the engine was running very rough at low rpm. One of the indication lamps started blinking when rpms were low - I believe it's the generator light but the instrument inscriptions are quite wiped off... We adjusted it "by ear" to run relatively smooth at a tad less than 1000 rpm idle and I took it for a 15 mile maiden trip.

Based on the test ride, initial inspection and the design concept here's a list of things to be done:

- engine condition review - compression test and whatever the guys come up with to see if anything has to be done with the engine
- valves need to be adjusted - especially on the left side
- Red warning light on instrument panel up for investigation
- Carbs cleaning
- Choke lever works strange - cable is a bit stiff and not working well
- Brake system upgrade/maintenance - adding second disc, changing pads front and rear, changing leaky master cylinder and leaky brake line.
- Engine block paintwork - black matt with some unpainted polished metal stripes
- Rims will be painted black
- Front forks also go black
- Custom "on a diet" headlight holders
- adding fork boots
- new seat
- new indicator and stop lights (possibly also headlight...)
- reducing the size of front and rear fenders
- new tyres 100/90 and 120/90 BT45s
- new mirrors
- new exhaust
- "sportier" steering
- Acewell gauge installation
- new switches
- Oil and filter changes, spark plugs, cables and other things considered regular maintenance

I suppose the list will continue to grow as we work on it...

Any advice on the above (and other) activities will be greatly appreciated and awarded lunch in case we get to meet somehow .

I will add photos and post updates and questions as we go.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 24, 2015, 04:47:47 PM
And first update:

The light turned out to be the gen. It lights around under 900 rpm an turns off when the engine is revved. So nothing to worry about.

The guys at the workshop asked me to bring in a shelf for the bike's parts and today when I went to see them I assembled it myself.

We tested the cylinder pressures. One was at 132 psi which is about OK but not perfect. The left side only had 89 psi though. The valves do not sound OK. Especially on the left side. On Monday I hope we can have the valves adjusted and will check pressures again.

Will try to post some photos  tomorrow.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: montmil on January 24, 2015, 08:37:55 PM
What year was Bertha birthed? There are differences in early v later R65 models.

Adjust your idle rpm to be at least 1000 rpm. If the engine idles too low, the GEN lamp reminds you that the battery is no longer being charged. Also, the design of the timing chain and sprockets is such that at a too low idle, very little or no oil is reaching the chain, sprockets and forward cam bearing. It's a rather crude design that simply spits oil toward the chain. Low revs will drop the oil pressure and the timing chest components wear for want of the crude splash lubrication design.

The Type 247 engine likes revs and is happiest from 3K and up. Avoid lugging the engine in higher gears.

Set valves prior to compression checks. Also, the carbs should be removed from the heads as the CV Bing's vacuum operated butterfly valves will not be open. Free air flow is needed. False compression readings result. Check the six head bolts for correct torque but do not exceed 25-27 pounds or there is a danger of stripping the aluminum threads in the crankcase. See your manual for head bolt torque sequence.

Adding a second disc will require sourcing a fork lower with the correct mounting lugs. PWhat brake caliper do you have? ATE or Brembo? Properly adjusted, the single disc will provide excellent braking. Duals will show a slight improvement but add substantial weight to the front forks and may require add'l tuning of the suspension innards. Twin discs do look sporty.

A 120 rear tire will be difficult to fit between the swingarm and may likely rub. Depends on the model year and the brand of tire. Bridgestone S11 Spitfires are popular and well match the modest suspension performance.

Post some photos. You will need to utilize a photo hosting site to post on the forum. Photobucket is a good, free service.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 25, 2015, 04:30:51 AM
I hope the guys will have time to adjust the valve clearances and the rocker arm free play on Monday. Thanks for the hint with the carbs - never tought of this. Will do next time we test after the valves are adjusted.

As for the brakes - the fork has slots for the right brake caliper. Mine are Brembos. It looks like a bolt on job. I bought the right caliper and brake line from a two disc bike (believe it's from an R80) and it really looks like an easy fit. I bought these from a guy in Germany who is selling BMW bike parts and he agreed to buy all the leftovers so I try to blow everything apart before he changes his mind  ;)

I'll start ordering parts so my friends can work on it when they have spare time  8-).

Here are some photos. More will surely follow. The bike's first registration was in 1987 so I suppose it\s made in 1986. When I bought it from Germany it had Greek registration papers... Go figure :-?

Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: montmil on January 25, 2015, 08:48:07 AM
Go here. Plug in the bike's VIN plus the add'l info. You'll learn the month and year of manufacture.

Occasionally, owners discover that their bike is last year's production model but titled and sold as the current newest and best model. This has, on occasion, caused errors in part numbers and applications.

As you have a monoshocker, I'll retract my rear tire interference comment. I have no knowledge of tire fitment other than twin-shockers.

Obtain a workshop manual; either Clymer or Haynes or both. Have your automotive friends study up before going too far. They may or may not have the service experience that these classics Airheads require. As my old grandpappy once told me, "Trust, but verify".
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 25, 2015, 09:53:50 AM

It turns out to be 10/1985 vintage - my age  ;D

What troubles me though is that the power is listed at 20 kW instead of the advertised by the reputable German seller 35 kW. AFAIK the differences between the two versions are only the carbs - 26 vs 32 mm...

The bike's registration papers indicate that it should be 35 kW...

If the carbs were changed at some point of time can this be verified by measuring the carbs inlet or by checking the carb part number (if visible somewhere on the carb)?
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 25, 2015, 12:56:52 PM
Well it's confirmed - the bike indeed is the lower power version... >:(

And the parts needed to upgrade it to full power ammount to 1/3 of the bike price; almost half the price if cylinders and pistons are also changed...

Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: steve hawkins on January 26, 2015, 04:35:44 AM
So you have an R45, not an R65 then?

I would check carefully that the bike has not already been upgraded to an R65.  UK spares firms used to sell kits of second hand parts to do the upgrades back in the day.  Not unreasonably either.  There are many R65s floating around the UK that started life as an R45.

Rev Light
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 26, 2015, 04:58:12 AM
It surely is R65 but the lower powered version designed for people that just took license - in Germany there was a limit of 27 HP.

That's why the R45 was discontinued - because they made a detuned version of the 65.

I talked with a guy in Germany that has all the parts to turn the bike to full power and if I succeed to get partial refund from the seller I will order them.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: montmil on January 27, 2015, 07:59:20 AM
Ah, the wonderment continues...

32mm CV Bings are the gold standard on R65s. The carbs have i.d. numbers on an attached plate that will permit you to determine the model and throat size. There are many different flavors of 32mm Bings so it would be helpful to know what you have installed. Be advised the carbs are handed. There is a right and a left side carb; differences being the enrichment and throttle hardware locations.

The other question regarding the lower power noted for your bike would be the size of the valves. It may be far fetched but your R65 could possibly have the small-valved heads that limit its power output. Upgrading to the larger valved heads would require a serious financial investment. I believe we have a forum member who once got a good deal on a pair of replacement heads only to discover they were the kid-sized meal.

Keep us posted as to your discoveries and the rehab of your sharp looking Mono.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: Tony Smith on January 28, 2015, 05:29:01 AM
I believe we have a forum member who once got a good deal on a pair of replacement heads only to discover they were the kid-sized meal

I only paid for one R45 head that had been advertised as a low mileage 1984 R65 head. I am still trying to give the bugger away.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 30, 2015, 06:34:22 AM
Parts are all ordered. Tomorrow we start disassembly of the bike.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: montmil on January 30, 2015, 08:21:33 AM
Parts are all ordered. Tomorrow we start disassembly of the bike.

What's on your order list?
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 30, 2015, 09:38:21 AM
I've ordered heads, carbs, camshaft and all the associated gaskets, o-rings and seals. Additionally will have to order the airfilter box which is also different. The pistons in the 35kW version are also different but I was told it mine will do (although with slightly lower compression 8.4 vs 8.7). The company that Im getting the parts of also have a pair of modified cylinders with pistons achieving 9.2 but will only order these if there is any problems with the cylinders themselves - otherwise I think it's not worth the money. Will inspect the cylinders tomorrow when we start disassembling the bike. I'll try to post some photos.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on January 31, 2015, 03:14:56 PM
And we are go for launch :)

We opened the engine today - no big surprises there. The exhaust nuts had to be sawn off with the angle grinder... The treads were somewhat striped from previous removals but will still be usable with a little care (either way the replacement heads will be coming). The carbs are awfully dirty and will need a bath before I can put them on E-bay.

The pistons can use new rings and I'm wondering whether to buy new rings or to buy refurbished higher compression pistons. The original ones for the 35kW version are 8.7 (mine are 8.4) and from the twin shock version are 9.2 and all have the same diameter. Do you think there will be noticeable improvement with 8.7 or 9.2 it doesn't worth it? Is going to 9.2 going to put more stress on the engine? And as a second tought - why did BMW lowered the compression ratio when the model line-up switched to the monoshock. Any benefits of going with lower compression?

When the engine parts arrive the whole block goes to the paintshop! I think to go with the engine block with cylinders, heads and covers flat black and have the BMW inscription, the vertical stripes and the horizontal stripes on the covers polished but I'm still browsing photos - can't yet decide  ::)
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: Tony Smith on February 13, 2015, 05:56:29 PM
By the amount of carbon that has gone past those rings, they were well past their use-by date.
I would vary carefully check the dimensions of the piston (and the little end bearing) before re-using them.
Please put something between the rod and the engine block - 1/3rd of an old mouse mat works a treat.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on February 16, 2015, 02:00:39 AM
All the engine parts are being shipped today from Germany (including 2 sets of piston rings). I ordered two regardless that the right side seems to have no such problems (it hasn't been opened yet but the pressure readings for that cylinder were about OK). This week the engine block hopefully will go for painting/blasting so we can put everything together when the parts arrive.

The rod was well lined up just after the photo was taken  8-)

About measuring the piston - what should I look for? I measured it to match the 82 mm that it is supposed to be?
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: montmil on February 16, 2015, 06:10:56 AM
Check in with the Snowbum's BMW website. There is a lengthy section on all things BMW pistons including much data to lengthy to post here.

Do not, under any circumstances, use glass bead, sand or similar materials to blast the BMW crankcase, heads, etc. Aqua blasting is acceptable.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on March 02, 2015, 03:09:15 AM
A little update - engine parts have finally arrived. That German fellow did a fantastic job refurbishing the heads and carbs! They are like new (if not better).

Last week I also ordered most of the exterior items (mufflers, exhaust wrap, mirrors, blinkers...) and hopefully they will be here sometime next week. Still have to get tyres, speedo and a few other bits and pieces but I will get them after we start final assembly and see if we are not missing something important. Seat will be ordered at a local workshop. Disassembly is a bit slow but now with the parts availbale I will try to hasten things up.

The company I got the bike from offerd me free parts to compensate for the difference between advertised and actual power of the bike - I got some filters, exhaust nuts and other goodies. Apparently there are still businesses that care about customer satisfaction.
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: montmil on March 02, 2015, 08:09:19 AM
Making progress and that's a good thing. Keep those updates flowing. [smiley=beer.gif]
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on March 07, 2015, 02:42:05 PM
The naked bike got even more naked - today we pulled out almost everything. The tyres and fork assembly go out in the coming week. We could have pulled them out but some fellow borrowed the engine hitch and forgot to bring it back in the workshop... Upon removing the top engine cover we found a neat surprise - the engine starter looks like it has been replaced with a brand new unit recently. The rotor took some creativity to get out but there were not any troubles disassembling the bike - everything is easy to do. I hope it stays this way when we start putting things back together  :)

With the bike disassembled the front and top engine covers go to the paintshop along with the rims and the fork. In the meanwhile we will clean the crankcase so it matches the new carbs and heads. After cleaning we will start putting things back together and I hope in early April the bike should be ready.

Some questions and opinions on the following matters will be appreciated:

The Acewell speedo unit I think to get has temperature readout on the display. What do you think is the best way to measure the oil temperature? Here's what the Acewell supplied sensor looks like - . Maybe we can drill a hole in the crankcase and use the Acewell sensor? Or we can machine a little adapter and attach it just before the planned oil cooler - it seems a little less aggressive this way.

Other thing I'm considering to do is lower the bike in front by about 1.5 inches. It will require a new top fork clamp which can be relatively easily made. Main reason to do it is just for the looks. Do you think this will bring any troubles?

The new steering will be much lower the the original one - do you think that new clutch and throttle cables will be needed or we can use the original ones and just hide the unneeded length somewhere under the tank?
Title: Re: R65 project in Bulgaria
Post by: starman85 on September 03, 2015, 03:42:17 AM
I'm installing the oil cooler set on the bike and the supplied center pipe for the filter is about flush with the outside engine wall (the flat face where the cover is bolted). I opted for the GS style cover that has no thermostat but a bypass hole. The center (cooled) hole gets about 3 mm inside the outside engine wall so the pipe gets about 3 mm inside the cover. How far inside a GS style cover the pipe needs to go in in order the system to operate right? Are the 3 mm enough or too much.

And one more thing. The oil filter canister (mine is with the round lip) is about 3.5 mm inside of the flat outer face which according to Snowbum's site is too much. The bike was running fine with just one metal shim and with the paper gasket installed. Do I have to put an additional shim and/or not to use the paper gasket for the cover?