The New And Improved Unofficial R65 Forum V2
Technical Discussion => BMW Technical Q&A, Primarily R65 => Topic started by: R80rider on April 19, 2008, 11:09:38 AM
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Hello all!
So I am encountering a problem with my 1986 R80RT and need your help. There is a bit of background here that may be important, so please forgive the extended length of this post.
Last weekend, I took a trip from San Diego to the AHRMA Corsa Classica at Willow Springs Raceway in Rosamond, CA.
On the way up, I noticed the voltmeter had dropped into the red, so I pulled the cycle off and sure enough the battery was drained.
After pulling the tank and pushing on all the relays, connectors and such and also removing and cleaning the battery cable connections, it became apparent that this was not going to be a roadside repair.
As luck would have it, there was a BMW dealer (Irv's) in Orange, CA about 35 miles away, so I reassembled the cycle, push started and rode it over to them.
They were extremely accommodating and took the cycle right into a service bay. Within 20 minutes, the diagnosis was a failed alternator rotor. Again, with luck on my side, they had one in stock and soon the mechanic was taking my R80 for a test ride.
Shortly after his return, the service representative approached me and said the charging system was fixed, but the mechanic was not happy with the cycles performance. She went on to say that he thought one or both of the carburetor diaphragms was ruptured. Moreover, they were willing to replace the diaphragms for just the cost of the parts as I still had time remaining on my initial one-hour of labor.
The suited me fine and I authorized the repair.
Soon, the mechanic was out for another test ride and the report was good!
From there, I rode the cycle on up to Rosamond (~100 miles) and then took it on another 100 miles journey the following day after the show at Willow Springs.
The cycle performed flawlessly and the power was noticeably improved.
On Sunday, I began the ride home still very satisfied with the repairs as the cycle was running great and the charging system was working perfectly.
I stopped to refuel and have brunch and was back on the road again about an hour later.
When I hit the 15 South, the cycle suddenly stalled. It felt like it had ran out of fuel so, even though I had gone less than 50 miles, I switched to reserve as I coasted to the shoulder.
There was no indication of any electrical issues and the starter turned freely, but the cycle would not restart. After about 5 minutes, I tried again, and was surprised when it backfired loudly out of the right carburetor area and then fired up and was purring like normal.
I rode to the next exit and checked the cycle over.
A couple of things I noticed were the cycle was now dripping oil from the oil sensor (which may be a coincidence, but I include it here to provide as much detail as possible), and air bubble were flowing up from the fuel filter window on the right side.
I reseated the fuel hoses to the petcock and checked the oil and thought it best to get the cycle on home.
Back on the highway, it stalled again (symptom reminded me or vapor lock as it did not struggle on one cylinder it just stopped running). Again, I waited and again a large backfire was followed by successful and smooth ignition.
This occurred several more time on the ride home (~120 miles) and I stayed in the right lane so that I had easy access to the shoulder. The symptoms were always the same.
On Tuesday, I called the BMW in Orange and was told that it sounded like a problem with the hose from the tank vent being constricted. They wanted me to bring the cycle in but they are up in Orange and I am in San Diego. That said, they asked if I would check the vent hose and remove it if needed.
That evening, I pulled the tank and there is no vent house just the nipple on the tank where it would go. This leads me to believe that the hose had been missing for sometime. Since, the tank is vented, I am working with the theory that the tank is venting fine.
So, as of now, this is where things stand. The oil sensor is still leaking oil, and the stalling has not been fixed.
Just a little extra information, neither carburetor is over-flowing, though I have not pulled of the bowls to check the floats. I find it odd that the cycle stalled on both cylinders because if there was a problem with one carburetor, I would have expected to lose one cylinder and not both.
The cycle just shuts down but, so far, has always restarted about being off for a few minutes. Once restarted it runs fine until the next sudden stall.
That is all I can think of at this time. As this forum has always been a great help to me (especially when I bought my first 1979 R65), I turn once again to all of you for help in resolving this latest issue.
Thanks in advance!
Bill
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Bill,
My guess is electrical. The same thing happened to me when my ignition system failed. Check for a cracked coil. A small hairline is all it will take. The next time it happens, quickly take a spark plug out, put the plug wire back on the spark plug and sit it on the jug to ground it. Hit the start button. if you don't see a spark, then you know it's an electrical problem. Sudden stalling is usually electrical. It could be the Hall sensor, coil, or something as simple as a loose ground wire.
Good luck, that's my 2 cents
Mike
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Bill, I've discovered a similar mysterious dying that I've traced to my ignition switch. Bike dies and although the key is "On", all the instrument idiot lights are out!. I flip the key off & on, and all the lights come on & I can restart. Sometimes with a "Bang".
Now I need to see if I can purchase a switch that lets me reuse my current key & lock. The switch has always been somewhat loose and I've tried to push the wiring connector on tighter, with no success. :-/
Ed
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Thanks for the responses. The lights all stay on so I am not sure it is the ignition switch which was just replaced a few months ago. Also, if it were a coil, that would just effect one cylinder, yes?
I will, however, check the spark the next time the problem occurs and report back.
Does anyone think this might be fuel delivery related since it is affecting both cylinders?
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Well, since they did replace the diaphragms, I suppose it is possible that the reassembly wasn't quite right, or perhaps they pulled the assembly out to work on it
and possibly tweaked/bent the jet needle putting it back together ? That shouldn't cause it to suddenly stall, though, but I'd still take the tops off the Bings and
look for something loose. If the bike is backfiring that means that cylinder is getting plenty/too much gas/running rich, usually. Or else the cylinder isn't necessariy running that rich but hasn't been getting any spark for a number of revolutions, so when the spark DOES come it has plenty of fuel to ignite. Are you still running original plug
wires and coil ? I'd check them and look for loose connections around the coil and ignition control module under the tank. If it tends to be stalling out when it
is hot out and you've been running awhile, it could also be the ignition control module is getting hot and shutting down - maybe time to clean and reapply some heatsink paste
to the back of it. But then again, if it does try to run on (1) cylinder while attempting to restart, that means the ICM is indeed working and we're back to looking at the coil
and plug wire/connections.
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When my bike runs out of the main fuel level it doesn't stall, it just starts stumbling, and I can flip the lever up to the reserve position and it smooths back out in a few seconds (seems like minutes if I'm on a busy road though!). So I think it's more likely electrical, too. It sucks, though, to have to wait until it stalls by the side of the road to be able to check for spark. Do you carry a spark plug socket with you, anyway?
Good luck,
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If it tends to be stalling out when it
is hot out and you've been running awhile, it could also be the ignition control module is getting hot and shutting down - maybe time to clean and reapply some heatsink paste to the back of it.
This is where I'd start.
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Excellent! You are seem to be in agreement that this is electrical, so I will set my sites on the ignition control module. By the way, I have not had this cycle long and, up until now, it has only been ridden in cool weather and was purchased in the Bay Area.
NHMAF - your mentioning that this module could be effected by heat was uncanny as the temperature was in the 90s when the failures occurred (a fact I had not even mentioned).
Thanks to ALL! I will let you know when I have dressed and pasted the ignition module and taken her for a good ride (with my plug wrench handy to check spark if needed).
Bill
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Please, please tell us what the problem really was when you find out. I really want to know about this one. No....visions of my future flash to mind! :o
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Good luck and do please let us know the outcome !
It may be something else, but ICM heatsink paste is one of the cheapest problems to fix so we'll keep our fingers crossed.
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I will let you all know. I am going to do this along with some other maintenance on all my cycles next weekend.
In the meantime, I found a nice pictorial of the process of cleaning and pasting the ignition module. It also mentions to do this when the cycle runs fine cool but quits for no known reason when hot.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-maintenance/ignition-heat-sink/
I will post and update here next Sunday.
Bill
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A "free" thing you could try (may have already been suggested) is if this "stalls" again loosen the fuel cap. If it immediately (after a few seconds) starts OK then maybe there is a vent issue. But, the others have pointed to a very likely culprit. Also, just as soon as it dies you could pull a plug, crank, and see if you have any spark. If there is no spark that narrows things down a great deal. When it "stalls" does the tach immediately drop to zero or does it wind down in sync with the declining RPMs?
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I would put my money on the ignition module. I have had the same problems usually after an hour on the motorway at high speed. After five minutes the engine starts as if nothing has happened.
The backfiring is caused by fuel being sucked in and blown into the excaust pipes after the ignition fails. When the ignition comes on again, the fumes in the excaust ignites. Fuel starvation does not result in backfiring. I had a muffler destroyed by backfiring when the lead to the ignition module became loose. I was doing 80 mph when that happened and the muffler split from front to back in the welding seam.
greetings from a very sunny and slightly warmer north with excellent driving conditions :) (and gardening conditions, my wife says :( )
trolle
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A quick, but inconclusive update for all of you. The ignition control units were cleaned and pasted on both the 86 (problem cycle) and the 87 yesterday along with some other needed items.
The R80RT was taken out for a short ride but this was in the evening when it was cool.
Today it is supposed to be a blistering 92F in San Diego so a longer ride in this heat will be a good test.
Upon return, I will post again and, hopefully, provide good news.
Bill
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No good. We got the cycle out on the road and within 20 miles it had stalled again with the exact same symptoms. It is obvious whatever is causing this is something that controls both cylinders as just stops running.
Since we have the 87 R80, we swapped the Ignition Control Module between the 2 cycles but the problem not only did not move, the 86 R80RT continued to stall out just as it had done before. Although, I failed to get a spark test after it fired, I am pretty well convinced it is losing spark for 3-5 minutes when it dies. As I mentioned before, the lights stay on and the starter still turns over. Also, as one or more of you mentioned, when it does start again it does with a backfire or two due unburnt fuel in the cylinders when it dies.
Since I have the R80 to swap from, I am open for suggestions as to what we should move between cycles next.
Any and all ideas are highly appreciated.
Thanks to all for continuing to help with this!!
Bill
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Next possibility would be to swap the 'bean can' the electrical canister under the front engine cover that has the Hall effect sensor that tells the ignition control module to 'fire'.
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IF it were me, before I went in to dig out the bean cans, I'd try swapping the coils and plug wires - it is quicker to do and it is possible for them to fail
under high temperatures as well. At least it might rule that out as a possibility - my "new" philosophy is to try all the simple/easier things first, as
I've burned myself a few times in the past couple years looking for a more complicated solution...
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Just a thought: The Hall effect sensor on my '84 r65 stopped working and I put in a new beancan. The first time I went for a ride, the engine stalled after appr. a mile. The cause of this was that the wires from the beancan to the ICU had been squashed between the timing cover and housing when I put the cover back on, and as the engine warmed up the insulation was gnawed (a good Danish word BTW) through and the wires shorted.
Your problem migth be due to a similar fault.
greetings from a rainy but warm north - not very good riding conditions, but who cares as I am going to Tuscany, Italy tomorrow
trolle
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Hello all! I just wanted to let you all know I have not had the chance to work on the RT. Maybe I can get to it next weekend. I will try all the things recommended here working systematically from the easiet to the hardest. Ultimately it would great to see the problem move to the '87 R80 so I know I have my lion by the tale.
After looking at the price it's a beemer) of a new bean can for the '86, I have to ask if anyone has ever successfully rebuilt the bean can on these cycles with electronic ignitions?
Hope all had a great weekend!
Bill
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There's a write-up on replacing the Hall sensor in our FAQ Technical section, doesn't appear to be too bad of a job.
The availability of the Honeywell 2AV54 sensor is another matter, I emailed Newark Electronics last week, and the lead time from the manufacturer is 12-14 weeks, and then 2 weeks for shipping.
I am considering purchasing 10 of them, to have on hand for the R65, and the R1150R, they both use the same sensor.
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Hi Bob,
Well when they come in keep one on hand for me. This seems like a good part to have in the spares stock. let me pop over and have a look at the post you mentioned.
Thanks,
Bill
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How 'bout a group purchase? I could use a few of them as we have 4 bikes that use 'em...
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OK, you've confirmed that lack of paste is not the issue so:
You can, if you wish, perform two tests:
1. To test coils and ignition module: Pull a spark plug, insert it back into the plug wire cap, and ground it securely on the cylinder jug. Turn the ignition key to ON. Place the kill switch in the RUN position. Now, watch the plug while flipping the kill switch on and off. You should get a spark as the switch is turned off. If you DO get a spark, this indicates that both your coils and your ignition module are functional and you can focus on the ignition sensor.
2. To test ignition sensor (bean can) under front cover: remove negative cable from battery, remove front cover to access bean can. Remove a spark plug and ground it to engine as in 1 above. Find the electrical wire that leads from the bean can upwards to connect with the main harness. Disconnect that connector by carefully removing a thin wire bail that holds the two halves of the connector together. Pull the plug apart. Using about a three inch length of thin wire, insert an end of the wire into the MIDDLE female hole of the three-hole connector that leads to the bike's harness (not the remaining half of the connector that's made up to the beancan). Connect negative ground to battery. Turn on ignition to bike. Place kill switch in Run position. Now, while the thin wire remains inserted in the middle female connector hole, strike the other end against the metal alternator cover as though you're striking a match. If, when you "strike the match" you also get a spark on the grounded spark plug, your hall effect sensor has failed.
Rick Jones at motorrad electrik rebuilds them for about $175. New ones are about $500 now.
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Bill,
Excellent information, thanks! I was looking over the procedure for replacing the hall senser in the bean can and, though it is well written with great graphics, when you start dremeling metal to seperate plates, I get a bit quesy. I saw that new cans were $500 so, once I complete the testing you have documented, I will let you know if I need the contact information for Rick Jones.
Out of a little more than curioisty, does he guarantee his rebuilds?
Thanks again and regards,
Bill
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You're welcome Bill. Rick Jones is Motorrad Electrik:
See Remanufactured Hall Sender Unit on this page:
http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm
Jones is the man for boxer electrics. I don't know what his warranty policy is.
There's another gentlemen is Colorado who rebuilds them for, allegedly, about $120. I can try to locate the contact info if you're interested.
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Thanks again, Bill. I am thinking if the services turn out to be needed, I would prefer to go with someone you feel comfortable endorsing that try to save a few dollars. I am, however, still curious if he guarantees his work. I will initiate contact and let you all know.
Regards,
Bill
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Rick Jones, the owner of Motorrad Elektrik, will stand behind every product he sells.
If something is not right with anything he sells, he will make it right.
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Thanks Bob! That is all I need to know.
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Just a quick note to update you all that I have no update. I have just not had time to get around to looking at either the beancan or the coil. One thing some of you may find of interest (though I am sure many already know). The 1987 R80 only uses one coil. This has me more hopeful that this might be the problem and I can avoid the more costly expense (for now) of having the Hall Effect component rebuilt in the beancan.
When I get the coil swapped from the 87 to the 86, I will provide another update.
Bill
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Rick Jones / Motoradd Electrik has a Dyna coil that cured my 81' R65 ignition problems. The original coil had tiny cracks in a circular pattern on the forward end.
Also have continued with a fuel flow problem traced to the fuel tank cap. original cap was horribly abused by PO and was no longer venting... hence a stall after a couple miles when the tank vacuum overcame the head pressure of a gravity flow system. Bike refired just fine after a minute's shutdown. New cap still has an occasional issue. I know... vent line check. Done.
If you have not already tried this, suggest you open fuel cap approx one-quarter turn and go for a ride - staying relatively close to home.
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Excellent information! Tha fuel cap is funky, so I am going to try this today. I also have an 87 so will use the fuel cap off that but still back it off per your suggestion.
Thanks and I will let you know!!
Bill
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Monte Miller: Eureka, Sir!!!!!
I just got back from a 70 mile ride on the R80RT. I didn't take your advice word for word, but since I have 2 R80s, I swapped out the gas cap, started the cycle up and ran her faster, harder, higher revs and even left her idling while I stopped for a coke.
Not one miss, backfire or stall!!!
She ran like a total dream!!!!
And, yes, I am happy. ;D
So when I got back, I inspected the "faulty" gas cap, and sure enough, some yahoo of a PO had taken silicon sealer and ran a bead around where the o-ring and gasket should be. Since this was not a problem on other rides, but originally manifested when it was very hot, I have 2 theories I would like to present for everyones perusal. The may be stand-alone or a marriage, but it would be nice to feel like I know what caused it (besides the obvious PO with his tube of silicon).
1. When the silicon was exposed to the prolonged heat, it naturally expanded. This led to it blocking the vent port in the top of the tank.
2. Natural vibration and gravity caused the silicon to slip from its original position and this in turn, blocked the vent port.
As always, I am open to other ideas, so lay them on me.
Case closed?
Ultimately, I am extremely happy that it was NOT the coil and even more so that it was NOT the beancan.
As always, I appreciate all the input, ideas and experience!!
And, Monte Miller, if you are a beer drinker, I owe you a case. Thank you!
Bill
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Monte Miller: Eureka, Sir!!!!!...
And, Monte Miller, if you are a beer drinker, I owe you a case. Thank you! Bill
Glad it worked out. And you can drop the "sir" stuff... that was my dad.
Too bad I didn't check this thread before I went out this afternoon and bought a case of, what else, Miller Lite. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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I don't know where the sir came from as I am probably older than you. ::)
You know, of course, upon further reflection, it is really embarassing to have not been able to figure out that my fuel cap was bad. :-[
I took a couple snaps of the good vs the bad cap. The photos turned out with a blue tint and I am not sure why, but here they are:
http://picasaweb.google.com/bill.cochran/Fuelcap
Does anybody have any idea what would compel someone use silicon sealer on one of these fuel caps? I mean, what symptom(s) might they have been attempting to address?
Also, after examing the photos, does anyone see any reason why I cannot remove the silicon and purchase the correct parts to get this fuel cap back to specs?
As you can guess the caps are not cheap and then their is the keying to deal with.
Parts Information from MAX BMW:
http://picasaweb.google.com/bill.cochran/Fuelcap/photo#5222625045082938514
Bill
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I don't know whether the silicone was causing your venting issue or not as it looks like it was just supplementing the seal. I believe the tank vents through those 4 holes in the bottom and something is likely clogged up/frozen inside there. The rubber seal and the black plastic trim ring are still available.
But, if the silicone was sealing the plastic trim ring to the tank then that may be altogether something else as I think that is where it breaths through.
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Speaking of keying, My key fits everything BUT the fuel cap. PO must have replaced it (?)
Any idea if the cap could be reset to my key?
Ed
:-/
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I don't know where the sir came from as I am probably older than you. You know, of course, upon further reflection, it is really embarassing to have not been able to figure out that my fuel cap was bad. I took a couple snaps of the good vs the bad cap. Does anybody have any idea what would compel someone use silicon sealer on one of these fuel caps? I mean, what symptom(s) might they have been attempting to address? Also, after examing the photos, does anyone see any reason why I cannot remove the silicon and purchase the correct parts to get this fuel cap back to specs? As you can guess the caps are not cheap and then their is the keying to deal with. Bill
Here's my original cap. Key lock drilled then back filled with epoxy. DIY cork gaskets -most likely to prevent fuel sloshing out when riding with the cap unscrewed. Split rubber trim ring, too. Nasty looking.
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FFuelCap02.jpg&hash=25beb58aaaedcab80261b39f7b411bf710cc4326)
(https://bmwr65.org/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi196.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa1%2Fmontmil%2FBMW%2520R65%2FFuelCao01.jpg&hash=94ecfd3ae4d455fbbd90c7cf7162b997d8bbd790)
I bought a very nice replacement cap, complete with gaskets, from these guys for half price. No key for the lock but no nasty cap either. Works for me. BTW, Bill, I'm 61... sir. 8-)
http://re-psycle.com/
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R80, I don't think silicone will expand with heat but I do remember it gets soft and swells a bit with constant/prolonged gas exposure. I had a '73 Honda CB450 with a leaky seam once upon a time and I tried silicone as an emergency quick-fix until I could properly solder the leak. It held up for a few hours then got soft and started leaking...
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Hi Justin,
That makes sense. I have not received any real answer to my question about buying a new ring and gasket for this cap. I see no reason to purchase a whole new or used one when it seems to me that removing the silicon and rehabilitating the current cap with the original parts which are only aroud 10 bucks would not be the recommended approach?
Any and all comments would be appreciated. Pics of the current cap are a few posts up in a link.
Thanks!
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I would give it a try as you really don't have anything to loose... If it still doesn't vent then save y6our new ring and gasket for futures...
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I have been living with a non-venting fuel cap since I got my bike last fall. It only took me about 5 months to figure out what was causing the mystery stalling problem. Like montmil’s cap, mine had the lock guts removed and filled with epoxy. Only my PO had also epoxied a neat little BMW medallion over the filled hole and being clueless about what the cap was supposed to look like, I thought it was fine. It was only after reading about venting problems here on the Forum and looking at the parts fiches did I realize that there was supposed to be a key and lock mechanism where my little BMW badge is. Needless to say, the cap has the venting qualities of a solid rubber stopper.
So, with a little bit of newfound insight and nothing to lose I pulled the badge off and drilled out as much of the epoxy goo as I could get at. In tinkering with the cap, I could see that there are holes on the side of the cap located just above the level where the rubber seal sits. You need to pull the flat plastic ring off to see these holes. I concluded that these holes are the venting “intake” somehow connected to an opening in the cap that is in turn connected to openings in the lower part of the cap below the seal. I tried drilling into the center void where the lock mechanism had been, though the existing holes above and below the rubber seal, but was defeated by what must be the remaining hardened steel lock casing, still firmly sealed into the interior of the cap. Nothing lost but a couple of small drill bits and a couple of hours.
Anyway, R80rider, I’d recommend you pull your cap and remove the ring and seal washer and take a look for those upper holes in the cap. If those holes are gunked with silicone sealant and you can get get them open, that might fix your venting problem and you won’t have to buy another cap or continue to switch your one uncongested cap between your two bikes.
Good luck with it!
John M.
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You may have nailed it, John. You can see in Monte's pic where the PO had actually epoxied the bottom vent holes shut! Ain't no way that sucker'll vent... Plugging the upper holes would pretty much accomplish the same thing.
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Sorry, it has been so long, but I just now got around to swapping the bean cans between my '86 and '87 R80's after the '86 got to the point where it would not start at all. Once swapped, the problem, without question, moved with the sender unit (bean can).
I will be sending the defective one to http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm as recommended by several of you.
Thanks for all the help!!